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Old 07-18-2011, 01:30 PM   #1
canoodles
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Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

I play in a somewhat regular home game that a friend hosts, and I am having some repeated problems that make me really question whether it is worth playing in. Let me start by saying it is the absolute donkiest home game anybody has ever played in their life and the amount of dead money makes up for it's small buy in (It's a $20 rebuy tournament that usually gets between 6-12 players depending on the night, and everybody rebuys multiple times).

But when I say it's the donkiest home game anybody has ever played in, I really mean it. Nobody knows what they are doing to the point where I constantly have to play tournament director, always instructing players who's first to act, how much money to call and "how many blue chips/red chips" that translates to, and we constantly get problems with string bets and stuff of that nature.

Now, the money has been worth it up until this point, and the person who hosts is a fairly close friend as are many of the players so I have always remained cordial in order to keep those ties. But I am constantly finding myself getting in arguments about what the "proper" course of action to take is when there are disputes. As much as I don't want to phrase it this way, I know I'm right every time. They usually gang up on me with their donkey logic because they've never read 2p2 or been in a B&M venue, and it gets very tiresome. Last time I played was the tipping point, and I'm wondering how I should approach this, and if I approached it poorly.

First we had a pot with Quads on board, and I shoved with A-high which was the nuts, and got called by one player with J-high who then claimed to have thought quads on board was a split pot. I really don't think he thought this since he tank-called, but he may have been nooby enough I am not sure. But then when I explain the concept of him angling/freerolling me, the whole table turns on me and rules it a chop pot. Their ruling didn't even have to do with accommodating villain's mistake, they just felt quads on board was a chop pot by rule.

Second situation: I shoved over a raise and a bunch of flats, and in succession players started talking amongst themselves on the strength of my hand and whether they should call, saying things like "are you going to fold if I call? should I call with 99?" And saying "I call" then being like "wait, should I call?" as I was trying to figure out the split pots.

Third situation: we were playing 6 handed and had decided to make it a winner-take-all on this night. I was fine with it, and I got to headsup with 9000 chips to villains 11000. He asks if we want to do a chop, and I said it was fine if the rest of the table didn't have a problem with it and they were all cool. So I explain the concept of an equity chop and do the math and the entire table starts spouting off bull**** math that somehow meant villain got $300 while I got $150 which was obviously not nearly correct mathematically. I kept disagreeing and said "let's just play it out" but by the time we'd simmered down, the host said we had to leave within 10 minutes so we couldn't. I was really frustrated and took the $150.

How should I have handled this? Should I just not return to this game even though it's with good friends and extremely juicy? I don't really know what to do. I feel like it would be really offensive to my friends if I stopped showing up, but I don't see how to make this game less retarded.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:25 PM   #2
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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Originally Posted by canoodles View Post
I play in a somewhat regular home game that a friend hosts, and I am having some repeated problems that make me really question whether it is worth playing in. Let me start by saying it is the absolute donkiest home game anybody has ever played in their life and the amount of dead money makes up for it's small buy in (It's a $20 rebuy tournament that usually gets between 6-12 players depending on the night, and everybody rebuys multiple times).
For me, it's a simple question... are you having fun? If not, can you make changes so that you will have fun? If not, than take some time off and see if that helps.



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Originally Posted by canoodles View Post
But when I say it's the donkiest home game anybody has ever played in, I really mean it. Nobody knows what they are doing to the point where I constantly have to play tournament director, always instructing players who's first to act, how much money to call and "how many blue chips/red chips" that translates to, and we constantly get problems with string bets and stuff of that nature.
I've printed out some relevant sections of RRoP and put them together. I'm sure nobody else has read through them, but they do normally go with me 'ruling'. Some games simply allow 'mild' string bets. Yes, it opens things up to angle shooting, but house rules are house rules. Same as One Oversize Chip rule. Explaining it as simply as possible, and being consistent should help folks learn the rule. In home games, I think it's important to let folks do what they intended to do... warning on the first infraction (and letting their intended action stand) and enforcing the rule after that. Yes, I tended to let them get a warning each game for the first few games.

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Now, the money has been worth it up until this point, and the person who hosts is a fairly close friend as are many of the players so I have always remained cordial in order to keep those ties. But I am constantly finding myself getting in arguments about what the "proper" course of action to take is when there are disputes. As much as I don't want to phrase it this way, I know I'm right every time. They usually gang up on me with their donkey logic because they've never read 2p2 or been in a B&M venue, and it gets very tiresome. Last time I played was the tipping point, and I'm wondering how I should approach this, and if I approached it poorly.
Talk to your friend the host, and share your frustration. Having things in print helps. Nobody expects all the players to read all the rules, but showing them when necessary takes the heat off you.

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First we had a pot with Quads on board, and I shoved with A-high which was the nuts, and got called by one player with J-high who then claimed to have thought quads on board was a split pot. I really don't think he thought this since he tank-called, but he may have been nooby enough I am not sure. But then when I explain the concept of him angling/freerolling me, the whole table turns on me and rules it a chop pot. Their ruling didn't even have to do with accommodating villain's mistake, they just felt quads on board was a chop pot by rule.
I'm a big fan of "What 5 cards are you playing?" to explain that. In a friendly home game, the accusation of angle shooting goes over poorly.

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Second situation: I shoved over a raise and a bunch of flats, and in succession players started talking amongst themselves on the strength of my hand and whether they should call, saying things like "are you going to fold if I call? should I call with 99?" And saying "I call" then being like "wait, should I call?" as I was trying to figure out the split pots.
One player to a hand is an often violated newbie home game rule. Asking them to put themselves in your shoes, may let them see how unfair it is to allow chatter about the hands and action. If the house rules allow it, then go with the flow and attempt to influence action your way. I think if that happened, they would be happy to cut the chatter.


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Third situation: we were playing 6 handed and had decided to make it a winner-take-all on this night. I was fine with it, and I got to headsup with 9000 chips to villains 11000. He asks if we want to do a chop, and I said it was fine if the rest of the table didn't have a problem with it and they were all cool. So I explain the concept of an equity chop and do the math and the entire table starts spouting off bull**** math that somehow meant villain got $300 while I got $150 which was obviously not nearly correct mathematically. I kept disagreeing and said "let's just play it out" but by the time we'd simmered down, the host said we had to leave within 10 minutes so we couldn't. I was really frustrated and took the $150.
In my world... most of the home game chops are done with easy numbers, and rarely strictly based on equity. Poor job by the host forcing an end and an unfair settlement.

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How should I have handled this? Should I just not return to this game even though it's with good friends and extremely juicy? I don't really know what to do. I feel like it would be really offensive to my friends if I stopped showing up, but I don't see how to make this game less retarded.
I have a rep as procedure/rules/chip nazi in the local games. When I stop having fun, I stop playing for a short while. Talk to a couple individuals about a couple of rules (string, OPTAH, chops, winning hands) and see if you can get them on board.

Good luck. I've had a lot of success getting my games closer to 'casino' style in procedure, but it wasn't easy.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:28 PM   #3
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

Great post thanks for it.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:39 PM   #4
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

For the quads hand, I wouldn't have given that hand up to a chop. However, using the words "angling/freerolling" didn't help your situation. You can be incredulous without being angry. Just be like "lol wtf? I have 4 of a kind and an ace kicker, you have 4 of a kind with a jack kicker"

For the chop at the end, For a pot of $450 (225 a person if 50/50), I'd have gone, "Look, we have almost the same amount of chips, but you're a tiny bit ahead, so why don't you take $25 extra. You take 250 and I'll take 200 and we'll call it even."

For the OPTAH, learn to live with at least some amount of it. Someone asking "Should I call with 99" is a little over the top, but expect a fair amount of "LOL someone has a big hand" or "LOL you're bluffing" Also, learn to live with non-binding verbal talk (like "I call, er.... wait I think"). Just don't react until they put their chips in the pot or are done with their thought process.

All-in-all, try to go with the flow of the game for the most point. I have a feeling that the table got annoyed at your freerolling/angling comment in the 1st situation and were less accomodating to you in the second situation, then ended up screwing you (on purpose?) in the 3rd situation, possibly in an attempt to get you not to play.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:46 PM   #5
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

Sorry perhaps I was a little unclear. For the quads hand, I did not overtly accuse him of angling, but instead explained the concept of angling and freerolling and how the precedent needs to be set.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:26 PM   #6
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

If the players in this game are really good friends, and the money involved is somewhat significant for at least some of them, I'd stop playing.

It seems that there's a good chance you may lose some friends over this, and that doesn't seems worth it.

"Best case scenario" is that they slowly start listening to you and play the game like it "should" be played, but there's probably still going to be some resentment towards you for "ruining the fun".

"Worst case scenario" is you're going to get into some kind of fight, where you'll always be the one that gets blamed.
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:34 PM   #7
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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Sorry perhaps I was a little unclear. For the quads hand, I did not overtly accuse him of angling, but instead explained the concept of angling and freerolling and how the precedent needs to be set.
If you sound annoyed at someone and start explaining to them how *people* can be angling, it's pretty much understood that you are talking about them.

That being said, it's not even angling at this point, it's a blatant breaking of the rules. You should've said something like "My best 5 card hand is quads + ace kicker, yours is quads + jack kicker"

Now if they don't understand why that is, you have to explain why the kicker is counted. For example, you could discuss what happens in a two pair battle (cause what are quads if not two pairs of the same card!), and (hopefully) one of them will realize that something like KKQQA loses to KKQQJ. Now tell them to assume that both KK and QQ are both XX, so you have XXXXA and XXXXJ. Who wins?

Last edited by evilbooyaa; 07-18-2011 at 03:35 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:52 PM   #8
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

Yeah I tried doing all of that, it was truly to no avail. They are usually fairly drunk, and not the smartest guys to begin with... I know them through alternative school that I had to enrol in after dropping out to play, lol. Yeah, the money is a lot more significant for them than it is for me, and I will always have other venues to play at... So I'm not entirely sure if I want to keep playing at this game.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:30 PM   #9
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

You can keep playing as long as you figure out what their rules are. For example, if quads is always a chop, shove all-in whenever you see quads on board.

Now if they screw you out of that hand with your 10 kicker, then tell them they're discriminating against you on purpose, flip the table, and walk out.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:48 PM   #10
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

You should move onto other games. This group seems to have you marked as the villian.

The thing on quads suck. I would of politely pushed the issue more, but if I lost it, I would of finished the game and elft for good. It was a bad idea bringing up any form of angling shooting regardless.

Talking on table hurts but some home games allow it. Next tiem your out of a hand, do the same to someone else. maybe they would voice concerns that it should not be allowed.

Chop, well that sucks, but you may have half hung yourself. So I explain the concept of an equity chop and do the math... Why explain this to a home game where guys don t know how to play. What you should of done was

He asks if we want to do a chop.

You say, what kind of chop.

He says the 50/50 or 60/40

You say, agree
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:16 PM   #11
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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I feel like it would be really offensive to my friends if I stopped showing up, but I don't see how to make this game less retarded.
If you're coming across to them, how your post is coming across here..... I strongly suspect they'd be happy to see you gone. The quads vote seems to be an indicator of that.

Look back at what you've written, take "right/wrong" out of it, and try to put yourself in the shoes of other, inexperienced players. Now, interpret your actions.

You're really going to introduce concepts such as angleshooting, equity chops and the like? In this group? Think about it.
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:24 PM   #12
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

obv they are noobs when it comes to all these verbally binding situations and what not. Also, they clearly never take your side and you always seemed to get ****ed in every situation. You should use your knowledge against them (angle shooting etc.) because they obv have no regard for anything you say and never rule in your favor.
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Old 07-19-2011, 12:31 AM   #13
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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obv they are noobs when it comes to all these verbally binding situations and what not. Also, they clearly never take your side

. You should use your knowledge against them (angle shooting etc.) because they obv have no regard for anything you say and never rule in your favor.
No, dumbass, that's not what he should do.

now, I'll apologize if that was a tongue-in-cheek statement... but, as written, shame on you.
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:39 AM   #14
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

I think you need to evaluate what your expectations are for this game. If these are your friends and this is a friendly game, do you have the ability to view it the same way? Can you set aside the poker player in you and not think of this as a "for profit" game and view it as a social gathering with your buddies,but, knowing at the same time since you do study the game that more often than not you can come out on top?

I think if you can do that then you should keep playing, try to fix the blatant problems i.e. the quads debacle, but fixing it away from the game before the next time you play by talking with the host. Let the smaller, less significant things slide to keep the fish happy.

I think what you have to realize with home poker is simply that... it's home poker. Some people just want to play for fun, some of the rules enforced at a casino (like optah, showing cards, foul language, etc.) can make the game seem boring to them and is exactly why they choose not to play at casinos. You'll only be able to implement those types of casino rules in games where people want to see the game played that way, if not you'll meet the heavy opposition you've been experiencing.

If you can't I'd suggest finding a new game and only come back to this game every once in a while when you need a break from grinding and want to throw too many back while splashing the pot, pulling your hand back from the muck to see what you would have had, and my personal favorite, declaring all in/calling an all in when you've already mucked.
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Old 07-19-2011, 02:58 AM   #15
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

Improving their knowledge one at a time would be easiest. Some poker time away from the game with the host as DJ8682 suggests is a good idea.

But you have to ask yourself if you really want them to improve their knowledge? I am sure there is a lot of crazy ****e going on that is in your favour.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:57 AM   #16
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

You're never going to affect change unless you get the host on board. If he agrees that rules should be known and enforced, then you might be able to teach the fish how a poker game should run. If he does not, and you cannot take the shenanigans any more, politely remove yourself from the game.

Personally, if I were to leave, I would write an open letter to the group. Explain to them that poker is something you are passionate about and have a great deal of respect for, and you expect a higher standard when it comes to the games in which you play. This can obviously get didactic, so put a lot of emphasis on how the recreational format of the game is a perfectly fine choice, (which is 100% true, because if they're having fun they are satisfying their needs perfectly) but not something you want to be a part of. I would explain the situation to my host in person before writing the letter, and make it very clear that his friendship is very important to me, and it is strictly a business matter.

Before you decide to remove yourself, however, you might also host a game of your own. Invite the entire group and any other poker acquaintances you may know who take the game more seriously. Print out a copy of RRoP and set a good example as to how a game should be run. Once they've been playing a properly run game for a few sessions, they might figure it out.

Above all else, make sure you don't hurt their feelings. Good luck.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:39 AM   #17
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

I play with a group of close friends.

I'm always saying whos turn it is and dealing.

My brother is always string betting but we dont care, we're just playing for fun. Most the time I dont play that hard. Il try and make big bluffs that I shouldnt, chase draws, hero calls ect. They are my mates, I dont really want to take too much off them.

The quads hand, if the guy really didnt know, I would, take back most the betting.

We had a situation like this, I was thinking of making a hero call (villein made big bluff on the river), I turned over my cards but before doing so, I said im not folding. He turned over his cards, so I let him take back the big bluff on the river. I was about 60-70% gonna call.
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Old 07-19-2011, 03:43 PM   #18
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

i would have a tough time going back to a game where the group decided that a 2:1 split was fair for a 11:9 ratio of chips. but maybe thats just me...

wherever i have played home games, the internet and a laptop are readily available... so for the quads dispute, i would make an entertaining teaching point out of it and show them the youtube of kristi gazes/brown lol-hand.
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Old 07-19-2011, 05:36 PM   #19
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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Personally, if I were to leave, I would write an open letter to the group. Explain to them that poker is something you are passionate about and have a great deal of respect for, and you expect a higher standard when it comes to the games in which you play. This can obviously get didactic, so put a lot of emphasis on how the recreational format of the game is a perfectly fine choice, (which is 100% true, because if they're having fun they are satisfying their needs perfectly) but not something you want to be a part of.

Above all else, make sure you don't hurt their feelings. .
Yeah, I'll give that about 78:1. An open, departing, letter is more likely to come across as arrogant.

Really, the only ones who might appreciate it.... are people such as we, on this board.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:18 PM   #20
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

I know half of these guys from attending an alternative school for drug addicts and pregnant teenagers, a formal letter would be ridiculously out of place. We're close enough where I could probably just voice my concerns and let them know in a manner that they understand. I'm sure me and the host can come to some compromise of how the game should be played with some basic etiquette rules. And if we can't, well I'll respectfully not attend their game and keep the friendship in other arenas no problem. Thanks for the responses.
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Old 07-19-2011, 06:46 PM   #21
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

Just find a better game.... It's generally a bad idea to play poker with non-poker friends anyway.
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:17 PM   #22
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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Personally, if I were to leave, I would write an open letter to the group.
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Really, the only ones who might appreciate it.... are people such as we, on this board.
"It appears that my work on this planet is finished, so I must now return to my home planet of Zarquon..."
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Old 07-19-2011, 08:36 PM   #23
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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"It appears that my work on this planet is finished, so I must now return to my home planet of Zarquon..."
They named a planet after him too?
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:17 PM   #24
Mahowny
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

When I began playing poker my first regular home game was a very loose, casual, make it up as you go along, affair that was affectionately called "The Stoner" Game. (You get the idea) These guys had all been friends since Jr High and had been playing regular poker together for years. I was the outsider / newbie and was also very new to poker in general so I just went along with whatever the status quo was.

As my experience increased, and I got more serious about the game, I branched out and started to attend several other weekly games in the area, most very well run, and started hosting my own weekly game and occasionally playing in B&M games + tournaments. Gradually over a period of 6-9 months I grew into a reputation as an experienced player with a lot of games and situations under my belt. Sort of the home game guru. I also didn't play as often at the stoner game.

Today when I play with that group it is really strange. Whenever there is a rules, procedure, format or etiquette question all eyes turn to me as the judge & jury. I guess the reputation I have been afforded has given me the resident authority mantle and I give my perspective on the right & proper thing to do. It is accepted without question or qualm and the game proceeds.

A long path to get to a possible solution but an indication that if you speak from experience, with confidence, non-judgmental and with a positive, "this is what would probably be the best for the game" tone and with written rules to back you up, folks seem to welcome someone else making rulings and taken the spotlight & pressure off them.

Lots of tips on this subject are in episodes the Top Pair Home Game Poker Podcast (www.toppair.com)
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:37 PM   #25
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Re: Annoying Situations in Noob Home Games

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They named a planet after him too?
My reference was to our dear departed kitteh, not HHGTTG.
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