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Old 07-20-2018, 05:34 PM   #1
dmccoy87
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Angle allegation, now what?

My home game uses the one-chip rule. (any player placing a single chip forward without any accompanying verbal declaration after another player has bet is making a call and not a raise)

Player A puts in a bet of $25, Player B puts in a bet of $105 with a single black and single red, red is on bottom. Player B never speaks when he is in a hand, so he just grabbed a black and red and slid it forward.

Player A immediately flips his cards over (nuts) before I say it's a raise. Player B says, "Did you call?" Player A says, "You called me." I say, "No, he raised you." Player A realizes the red is under the black chip and the sh--show goes from there.

Player A is mad because he says he is missing value because now player B can fold. Player B is staying quiet, deferring to me for the ruling.

I decide it is a legal raise, and Player A must proceed. Player A just calls because he obviously isn't getting called if he raises, and Player B mucks. Player A gets more pissed, because Player B raised last and should have been the first to show. I agree that the house rule says Player B needs to show since he took last aggressive action.

So now both players are pissed and they cash out.

I've made it clear that if I think anyone angle shoots anyone they are out of the game permanently, but I honestly don't think this was an angle. Player B has never verbally announced a raise before, and he follows the one chip rule.

Thoughts? How would you handle this?
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Old 07-20-2018, 06:02 PM   #2
psandman
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Look this isn't an angle unless you think the player is deliberately placing the bet in a way that hides a chip. And it's pretty hard to see that as an angle in this situation (would make more sense if it was a bet and being disguised as a lower bet)

It seems to me that player A just made a mistake. But I would tell him if he wants we can rule player B didn't raise....

Not sure why you keep talking about the 1 chip rule.

Last edited by psandman; 07-20-2018 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:13 PM   #3
dmccoy87
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

I mention the one chip rule because it affects how people may have been acting regarding an angle. Player B put the extra 5 in because of the rule. Player A thought he was trying to make it look like a call with one chip to angle him.

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Old 07-20-2018, 08:52 PM   #4
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmccoy87 View Post
I mention the one chip rule because it affects how people may have been acting regarding an angle. Player B put the extra 5 in because of the rule. Player A thought he was trying to make it look like a call with one chip to angle him.

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So what is the angle? Make him think it's a call? Instead of a raise? Realistically what benefit does player b get out of this? About the only thing that could happen to benefit B is that player A exposes his cards and then as a result of that can't effectively reraise..... But think about it.... If he is worried about a reraise he can simply call instead and save the Extra money.

Plus it's pretty hard to hide a chip in a 2 chip bet. I get that at first glance someone might make a mistake, but it's not easy to force thAt mistake to happen.
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:56 PM   #5
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

By the way in this scenario I rule it a call not a raise. Not because it is a call but because if Player A wants to argue about it and winning the argument costs him $100.... I think he should get to win.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:52 AM   #6
dmccoy87
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Thought about it more and you're right, this couldn't benefit Player B even if it was an angle. It was a raise, plain and simple.

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Old 07-21-2018, 04:28 PM   #7
BigBlue56
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Yeah, yeah, yeah... protect your cards, protect your action.

A - Applauded for betting and quickly showing when called. Pissed because they didn't verify it was a call before showing. Got the $80 raise, maybe missed out on more. Maybe angry for that.

B - No information given about how the chips were bet, and if that was 'normal' for a 2 chip bet. I can think of a few ways that they would have been clearly 2 chips (and therefore a raise) and a few ways they could have appeared as a single chip (and therefore a call). Unsure why B would be mad. If the raise was a bluff, they must have thought it was clearly a raise. Unlikely to call the re-raise so the end result is the same. If the raise was for value, they got lucky to find out they were beat before losing more.


Would A angle with the nuts in this manner? Nope.

Could B think they were raising for value, hoping A would show a weaker hand and then be held to a call? Nope, not when they ask A if they called after showing. The angle is to sneak in the raise, see a weaker hand exposed, expose your hand and insist that they called.

No angles here. Some floppy play and perhaps a reason that very large denominations aren't always a good idea. If the highest chips were $25, then the raise to $105 is 5 chips and much less likely to be hidden.
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:46 AM   #8
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Were the red and black stuck together like some home game chips do? Seems like A just saw the black and assumed a one chip call. Not verbalizing your action or amounts (as B prefers) are a players option certainly , but can lead to moderate problems sometimes like this one or lots worse!
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:54 AM   #9
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
Were the red and black stuck together like some home game chips do? Seems like A just saw the black and assumed a one chip call. Not verbalizing your action or amounts (as B prefers) are a players option certainly , but can lead to moderate problems sometimes like this one or lots worse!
They weren't stuck together, but they were stacked neatly. I agree that A saw the black and assumed the call, the issue was he thought it was intentional.

I agree that it would be a lot simpler to just put in the 100 and announce a raise rather than add in 5 to get around the 1 chip rule. That said, if he was calling with one chip, it would have been a green. Player A made a mistake, plain and simple.
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:59 AM   #10
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue56 View Post
B - No information given about how the chips were bet, and if that was 'normal' for a 2 chip bet. I can think of a few ways that they would have been clearly 2 chips (and therefore a raise) and a few ways they could have appeared as a single chip (and therefore a call). Unsure why B would be mad. If the raise was a bluff, they must have thought it was clearly a raise. Unlikely to call the re-raise so the end result is the same. If the raise was for value, they got lucky to find out they were beat before losing more.
The black was placed directly on top of the red and moved to the center. Player B is very orderly to the point of being obsessive, so he always bets with the fewest number of chips. In that way, it was normal. What was abnormal was the bet size of $105.

Player B was mad because he was accused of angle shooting and also because after Player A showed he felt he shouldn't have had to show.
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Old 07-23-2018, 01:04 PM   #11
Black Aces 518
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Both players seem pretty douchey, with Player A seeming extremely douchey. What result did Player A actually want? What did he think Player B was getting out of "faking" a call?
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Old 07-23-2018, 02:14 PM   #12
BigBlue56
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmccoy87 View Post
The black was placed directly on top of the red and moved to the center. Player B is very orderly to the point of being obsessive, so he always bets with the fewest number of chips. In that way, it was normal. What was abnormal was the bet size of $105.

Player B was mad because he was accused of angle shooting and also because after Player A showed he felt he shouldn't have had to show.
OK. Thanks.

Now I'm picturing Player B placing 2 chips together and moving them to the center. Maybe tough to tell if it's 1 chip (a call) or 2 (a raise). Based on this, B could have placed 2 $25 chips together, leading to the same confusion.

If B does this always, then A should have known to check/confirm. It could have been $101, $105, $125, $200, $600 (if you have $500 chips in play).

Depending on hour rules, A (or anyone else) could have requested to see B's hand (IWTSTH).

It can be tough to get a good group of players together on a regular basis. Hate to see unnecessary drama, definitely know players who are 'particular' in their actions. Hopefully they'll get over the drama this time and learn how to avoid it for the next time.
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:59 PM   #13
DrChesspain
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Player A could use a KITN.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:01 AM   #14
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Likely not an angle, but rules are rules. However, rules are meant to be broken. The answer is usually to take the totality of the circumstance, and twist the rules so that the spirit of the game is most followed.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:20 PM   #15
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Re: Angle allegation, now what?

Quote:
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Likely not an angle, but rules are rules. However, rules are meant to be broken. The answer is usually to take the totality of the circumstance, and twist the rules so that the spirit of the game is most followed.
Rules should never be broken!

But totally agree that they should be "adjusted" due to circumstances!
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