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Old 06-26-2018, 03:45 PM   #1
dannyboy6292
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25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and excited to be here. I am a 2/5-5/10 NL cash player that plays tournaments. I just got back from Vegas WSOP and didnt cash once. Card dead!

So I have this game I was invited to with mostly businessmen and 2 pros. I have lost both times ($4000 a pop) and I have the table appearance of a complete NIT but I am not really a Nit. Because the stakes are a bit on the high range for my bankroll I have gotten bluffed off several winners.

Any advice on how to play my real game of poker without worrying about money.

Also any advice on how to exploit my "nitty" reputation?

( first game I was up 11000 and lost kings to aces all in in the last half hour of the game)
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Old 06-26-2018, 08:25 PM   #2
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

As a matter of policy, play games that are well within your bankroll. You don't want to be the scared money guy.

There's nothing wrong with taking an occasional shot, but exercise some discipline with that.
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:32 AM   #3
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

Losing $4,000 in a session of $25/$25 seems mild. Minus 160bb in a session is certainly well within the normal range of variance for a break even player.

I don't see any reason for Hero to assume he is even a break even player in this game. He might be or might not be, but two sessions with "normal" losses is no evidence at all. I give Hero the benefit of the doubt that he wins in lower stakes / softer games. If that isn't overwhelmingly true, then Hero needs to stop unless wealthy enough to shrug off five figure losses.

My advice is don't play in this game. Especially not after dropping multiple entry fees at the WSOP. The fact Hero can say that he has gotten bluffed off winners DUE to bankroll concerns should be a huge red flag.

If Hero can build up a reserve through playing his normal stakes to take a shot - fine, take a shot. But it sounds like that is how Hero is funding his WSOP adventures. I have to wonder if Hero's bankroll really can withstand both the WSOP and taking shots at bigger stakes games.

Normally I don't put much stock in bankroll management for casual poker players. There isn't a real risk of ruin because the player has ample outside income in many cases. If Hero is making a solid six or minimal seven figure outside income, then he doesn't have a risk of ruin here. But if Hero isn't making that kind of money, then precautions are in order. Hero needs to be disciplined and not let poker loses becomes a major factor in his life.

Be careful out there, these kinds of losses can get ugly -=- DrStrange
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:13 AM   #4
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Originally Posted by DrStrange View Post
Losing $4,000 in a session of $25/$25 seems mild. Minus 160bb in a session is certainly well within the normal range of variance for a break even player.

I don't see any reason for Hero to assume he is even a break even player in this game. He might be or might not be, but two sessions with "normal" losses is no evidence at all. I give Hero the benefit of the doubt that he wins in lower stakes / softer games. If that isn't overwhelmingly true, then Hero needs to stop unless wealthy enough to shrug off five figure losses.

My advice is don't play in this game. Especially not after dropping multiple entry fees at the WSOP. The fact Hero can say that he has gotten bluffed off winners DUE to bankroll concerns should be a huge red flag.

If Hero can build up a reserve through playing his normal stakes to take a shot - fine, take a shot. But it sounds like that is how Hero is funding his WSOP adventures. I have to wonder if Hero's bankroll really can withstand both the WSOP and taking shots at bigger stakes games.

Normally I don't put much stock in bankroll management for casual poker players. There isn't a real risk of ruin because the player has ample outside income in many cases. If Hero is making a solid six or minimal seven figure outside income, then he doesn't have a risk of ruin here. But if Hero isn't making that kind of money, then precautions are in order. Hero needs to be disciplined and not let poker loses becomes a major factor in his life.

Be careful out there, these kinds of losses can get ugly -=- DrStrange
Wonderful advice. My roll has taken a pretty good shot the last month or so. I did win a $200 multi rebuy (100k guaranteed) We ICM chopped and I got $11,000. I took a couple shots at the 25/25 and felt the fear I never felt before.

I make a good low end 6 figure living, not 7 so I think its back to 2/5 to me for a while until I can have another 5k to take a shot. At this point though the 25/25 is a bit big.

I do feel though that playing 25/25 makes me a better 2/5 player and a better player in general being able to deal with the nerves and try and make good CONSCIOUS decisions under duress.

Thank you!
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:17 AM   #5
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Originally Posted by DrStrange View Post
Losing $4,000 in a session of $25/$25 seems mild. Minus 160bb in a session is certainly well within the normal range of variance for a break even player.

I don't see any reason for Hero to assume he is even a break even player in this game. He might be or might not be, but two sessions with "normal" losses is no evidence at all. I give Hero the benefit of the doubt that he wins in lower stakes / softer games. If that isn't overwhelmingly true, then Hero needs to stop unless wealthy enough to shrug off five figure losses.

My advice is don't play in this game. Especially not after dropping multiple entry fees at the WSOP. The fact Hero can say that he has gotten bluffed off winners DUE to bankroll concerns should be a huge red flag.

If Hero can build up a reserve through playing his normal stakes to take a shot - fine, take a shot. But it sounds like that is how Hero is funding his WSOP adventures. I have to wonder if Hero's bankroll really can withstand both the WSOP and taking shots at bigger stakes games.

Normally I don't put much stock in bankroll management for casual poker players. There isn't a real risk of ruin because the player has ample outside income in many cases. If Hero is making a solid six or minimal seven figure outside income, then he doesn't have a risk of ruin here. But if Hero isn't making that kind of money, then precautions are in order. Hero needs to be disciplined and not let poker loses becomes a major factor in his life.

Be careful out there, these kinds of losses can get ugly -=- DrStrange
10/10 would read again.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:28 AM   #6
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

best thing you can do is make a strategy and obey it no matter the stakes. you can do little things to exploit your image like getting credit for value hands more than the avg player, but truly the best thing to do is learn to play your cards well away from the table.
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Old 06-27-2018, 11:58 AM   #7
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

I am so glad I found this site. Amazing how people can still share knowledge. I am so thankful.

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Old 06-29-2018, 09:41 AM   #8
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

Played the 25/25 with a couple top pros last night. Won 2k. From 8p- 1pm I got kings once, queens once. in the hand where I had my queens I lost to pocket aces- just me and him in the hand BB and SB ( folded all the way around to him in the SB) I only lost 1200 so that's a win.

I did not hit one set. I hit a couple of flushes and not one straight. I got zero cards all things considered and still made 2k.

The game is a sick mix of rich degenerate businessmen and a couple of the top pros in the world.

If I can get some cards, this game is a honey hole.

PS: Lost with pocket kings last week to pocket aces- all in pre flop for 13k.( started with 4k) Anyone ever lay kings down in cash preflop?

PSS: What should buy in be for a 25/25? I prefer to come in a touch light and work a shorter stack.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:33 AM   #9
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25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

From reading the OP and the follow ups by the original poster, I'd be surprised if OP was a long term winning player in 2/5. There are just so many red flags. S/he may currently be a winning player, but heaters can cool.

As for the 25/25 game, I wouldn't play if I were you, at the very least your admitted lack of sufficient bankroll will make you a dog.
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:24 AM   #10
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
From reading the OP and the follow ups by the original poster, I'd be surprised if OP was a long term winning player in 2/5. There are just so many red flags. S/he may currently be a winning player, but heaters can cool.

As for the 25/25 game, I wouldn't play if I were you, at the very least your admitted lack of sufficient bankroll will make you a dog.
Fair enough. I wasnt a winning player until this year. I still debating the 25/25. I am teetering on whats needed for the roll and I have a good 6 figure job which helps...

I appreciate the candor for sure.

What are the red flags if I may ask?
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:31 PM   #11
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

If you have to ask how often you’re good when you put in 500 BB with KK preflop either the game is VERY VERY good or you need to move down. Totally serious.

By red flags he means based on the way you word your posts you don’t seem to have a lot of experience playing poker (at least in higher stakes games). I’ve played in super soft home games before so this may or may not be a big deal. There’s a lot of resources on this site I’d recommend you look through
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:40 PM   #12
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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If you have to ask how often you’re good when you put in 500 BB with KK preflop either the game is VERY VERY good or you need to move down. Totally serious.

By red flags he means based on the way you word your posts you don’t seem to have a lot of experience playing poker (at least in higher stakes games). I’ve played in super soft home games before so this may or may not be a big deal. There’s a lot of resources on this site I’d recommend you look through
It was a real anomaly hand. I believe the casino 2/5 plays the same as this home game. I just have to be wary of the 1 or 2 pros that come in. I do not have all that much high stakes cash experience. I am just now moving up after years of 2/5 and the occasional 5/10.
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Old 06-29-2018, 02:41 PM   #13
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

I also dont know the common poker lingo due to just playing poker, not trolling forums.
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Old 06-29-2018, 05:42 PM   #14
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

The range of skill in big bet poker is an ocean, and nobody giving you advice here is hanging in games with top level professionals. But the strategy questions you are asking are ones people solve well before they are crushing (vs running well in) a 2/5 live game.

For example, laying down KK preflop at 500 BB involves some thinking about the opponent's hand range and previous raises. Your question shows you aren't thinking about it that way, and preflop is the simplest street.

The professionals in this game will adjust to your somewhat ABC TAG play (e.g., bluffing you in big pots where you don't have the nuts) and will run over you. The rich guys will lose too, but they can afford to. You can't beat the rich guys at a rate that overtake the rate you will lose to the better players.
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Old 06-30-2018, 08:41 AM   #15
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Fair enough. I wasnt a winning player until this year. I still debating the 25/25. I am teetering on whats needed for the roll and I have a good 6 figure job which helps...

I appreciate the candor for sure.

What are the red flags if I may ask?
- as a few mentioned, 4k is only 160bb, which isn't really much of a lose. it's pretty standard to have a session or 2 where you lose 300bb total. honestly, i would only expect beginning players to start a post about losing 300bb in 2 sessions.

- asking how to exploit a nitty reputation (bare in mind, i have no problems with you asking. asking questions is how people get better). this is a pretty standard thing to know how to change gears and adjust for your table image. at higher levels, good players should already know how to do this. ABC players tend to not have learned this skill yet though.

- getting in KK 400bb AIPF is typically not a winning move vs anyone with a brain. many people take their lumps on this one at deep low stakes tables, you just happened to take it at a 25/25 table

- asking if anyone has ever laid down kings pre.

look, i'm not trying to rag on you with this stuff, it's just that i've spent a fair amount of time on this forum, on other forums, talking to others about poker, and just a large amount of time in poker rooms. the way you talk about poker just isn't indicative of what i have typically found of players who are 2/5 winners (or higher).

granted, you said you have a normal job and had the $$$ to play in 25/25, i'm of the mind that someone in your situation (which is the same as mine), that you play the highest stakes comfortable without bankroll considerations because your risk of ruin is basically 0 because the worst thing that happens is you bust and go to work monday morning and make your normal salary.

regardless all of this, if you want HH advice, come over the LLSNL area and there are plenty of smart posters over there (with some not so smart ones too). i dont really check out the mid/high stakes forums that much because they tend to be less active, but they're there if you want to post too.

GL with it.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:48 AM   #16
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
- as a few mentioned, 4k is only 160bb, which isn't really much of a lose. it's pretty standard to have a session or 2 where you lose 300bb total. honestly, i would only expect beginning players to start a post about losing 300bb in 2 sessions.

- asking how to exploit a nitty reputation (bare in mind, i have no problems with you asking. asking questions is how people get better). this is a pretty standard thing to know how to change gears and adjust for your table image. at higher levels, good players should already know how to do this. ABC players tend to not have learned this skill yet though.

- getting in KK 400bb AIPF is typically not a winning move vs anyone with a brain. many people take their lumps on this one at deep low stakes tables, you just happened to take it at a 25/25 table

- asking if anyone has ever laid down kings pre.

look, i'm not trying to rag on you with this stuff, it's just that i've spent a fair amount of time on this forum, on other forums, talking to others about poker, and just a large amount of time in poker rooms. the way you talk about poker just isn't indicative of what i have typically found of players who are 2/5 winners (or higher).

granted, you said you have a normal job and had the $$$ to play in 25/25, i'm of the mind that someone in your situation (which is the same as mine), that you play the highest stakes comfortable without bankroll considerations because your risk of ruin is basically 0 because the worst thing that happens is you bust and go to work monday morning and make your normal salary.

regardless all of this, if you want HH advice, come over the LLSNL area and there are plenty of smart posters over there (with some not so smart ones too). i dont really check out the mid/high stakes forums that much because they tend to be less active, but they're there if you want to post too.

GL with it.

Thank you for your candor. I am a winning player at 2/5 but I cant really prove it per se.

The game I am referring to is a very soft game for the limits. I played in Vegas multiple 5/10 games at multiple locations and all of those games were tougher and I struggled with them.

I do have one question about your response- are you saying I should have folded those kings pre flop? I have polled a lot of pros some very hi level and not one said they lay it down.

I took 8200 from this game Saturday night. I am here to get better and I know I have a lot to learn so thank you. ( I will check out the LLSNl forum)
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:38 PM   #17
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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I do have one question about your response- are you saying I should have folded those kings pre flop? I have polled a lot of pros some very hi level and not one said they lay it down.

Without knowing the HH or anything about the V, I would say that it would be atypical to get 400bb pre with KK and expect to be ahead.
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Old 07-02-2018, 02:23 PM   #18
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Without knowing the HH or anything about the V, I would say that it would be atypical to get 400bb pre with KK and expect to be ahead.
I suppose. I guess I am just not that good. Many times in this game people are shoving with AK and queens. True story.
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Old 07-02-2018, 02:24 PM   #19
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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I suppose. I guess I am just not that good. Many times in this game people are shoving with AK and queens. True story.
Villian shoved with AK earlier pre flop. Kind of why I snapped him up. SMH
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:01 PM   #20
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

they're shoving 400bb effective - meaning the smallest stack in the hand is 10k - with AK and QQ?
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:40 PM   #21
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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they're shoving 400bb effective - meaning the smallest stack in the hand is 10k - with AK and QQ?
Not only 400bb's - average stack is usually 4-5k. The villain that had the aces ( he was a real villain- Russian pro LOL) showed AK earlier with 350 or bb's. There have been guys shoving with 3-4k with AQ and 10s 9s in this game. True story. It's a nutty game.

( perhaps I was set up by the Russians AK show to get my stack...hmmmmmm)
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:46 PM   #22
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Not only 400bb's - average stack is usually 4-5k. The villain that had the aces ( he was a real villain- Russian pro LOL) showed AK earlier with 350 or bb's. There have been guys shoving with 3-4k with AQ and 10s 9s in this game. True story. It's a nutty game.

( perhaps I was set up by the Russians AK show to get my stack...hmmmmmm)
Danny, you mentioned you don't know the lingo, and I think there's been some confusion as a result. $3-4K is around 110-160BB. Getting it in at that stack depth is much different than getting it in with 400BB, which would be $10K. Furthermore, it's different if you're talking about the pot being 300BB or if you got it in for 300BB (meaning the pot was 600BB, or $15K).

It might be easier if you stick to telling us how many BB you got it in (gii) with pre.

And an additional fyi, when we use the term "effective", that means the shortest relevant stack in the hand. "We started with 300BB eff," means the short stack had that much. So you might say, "He jammed for 150BB eff with AQ," which is a much different story than what I (and I'm guessing others) took from some of your hand histories.

Final FYI: in a 4 handed game, the odds of KK vs AA is extremely low. If you have KK the odds of someone waking up with AA is 1.44%. The odds of it happening at the end of the night where they can clean you out is, um, a question whose answer might not be solved by math.

glgl
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:35 AM   #23
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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Danny, you mentioned you don't know the lingo, and I think there's been some confusion as a result. $3-4K is around 110-160BB. Getting it in at that stack depth is much different than getting it in with 400BB, which would be $10K. Furthermore, it's different if you're talking about the pot being 300BB or if you got it in for 300BB (meaning the pot was 600BB, or $15K).

It might be easier if you stick to telling us how many BB you got it in (gii) with pre.

And an additional fyi, when we use the term "effective", that means the shortest relevant stack in the hand. "We started with 300BB eff," means the short stack had that much. So you might say, "He jammed for 150BB eff with AQ," which is a much different story than what I (and I'm guessing others) took from some of your hand histories.

Final FYI: in a 4 handed game, the odds of KK vs AA is extremely low. If you have KK the odds of someone waking up with AA is 1.44%. The odds of it happening at the end of the night where they can clean you out is, um, a question whose answer might not be solved by math.

glgl
This is incredibly helpful and insightful. I am humbled by how much information strangers are willing to share and will pay it forward for this. I want to learn from this site and am just very thankful.

As far as what you are alluding to, I remember the dealer who came in very well. Its at a private table in the upstairs of a casino. We pay 81 dollars per half hour rake for the room taken out of the first $500 pot per dealer ( they rotate each half hour) I thought about the odds and if it was possible that one of the players and the dealer could be in cahoots and the odds of that are even more crazy. We were 7 handed at the time of the beat so to be able to deal aces and kings 7 handed to specific players would be a miracle in itself. ( I think)

I am not sure if you were going in this direction but I figured this is where you were going. I just dont think its possible. ( The dealer was pretty shady looking )

I am chalking this up to a learning experience. When I am that deep, I can fold anything at any time and walk away a winner. I just had never been in that situation with those stakes. Only went up in stakes from 2/5- 5/10 a few months ago. Thank you again.
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:38 AM   #24
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

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they're shoving 400bb effective - meaning the smallest stack in the hand is 10k - with AK and QQ?
To elaborate there is one degen who seems to get stuck every night and continues to buy in for 3k. He will jam that 3k with pretty much anything looking for a double.

Lots of good guys and good players. A couple of wildmen. Amazing game. Guy who runs it is a class act. #lucky
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:25 AM   #25
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Re: 25/25 NL- Lost $4000 and lost $4000 first two nights

playing above your bankroll.... it seems as simple as that. they also seem smart enough to realize this, and blow you off your hands. Even worse, it's going to be especially hard for you to get value from made hands since you're already labelled a nit, in your own words. it's hard for me to give you any suggestions on what to do on specific hands because of this. if sharks smell blood in the water, well, there you go.

table selection is as important to being a long term net-positive player as anything you do *at* the table. You don't have anything to prove to these ****heads, go back to the 2/5 and crush the game you know you can crush.
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