Remember where she came from though. This is a young girl who was basically sold off as a slave wife in the beginning of S1. I think she did fairly well all things considered. Yeah, she made some big mistakes and caught a few lucky breaks, but her mistakes did cost her and her friends many times.

that's all fair comment, and I don't mind re-evaluating my position on dany. I kind of resent the fact that she's been marked as invincible and is therefore seemingly able to do whatever the **** she wants and the results will come, but like I say I'll try to keep an open mind.

I must say, as a viewer who hates LOTR and all similar dungeons/dragons type stuff, this is a great show and I'm quite addicted!

Comparing this to the LOTR movies is an insult. Dany is a massive degen and she simply luckboxed into basically everything that's helped her. All the decisions she's made by herself she's derped and most good stuff was coordinated with outside parties.

SEVEN HELLS NED!

not comparing it to LOTR, just mentioning that I hate all that dragons stuff but still find myself loving GOT.

YOU WOULD SAY THAT, ZARO ZARON DOXOS

****ing ducksauce.

How couldn't you? Quite probably the greatest thing to ever hit our television sets.

Wat, keep saying this and I'm not seeing any connection at all. She's gotten everywhere by intelligence, almost to the exclusion of everything else. Quite the opposite of getting lucky she was left to die in the desert after Drogo died and she's now more powerful than ever. And like none of it due to luck. I don't understand.

You, sir, are quite the revisionist.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

dude, you have a thread

Umm, the genesis of her plot lie in her disdain for slavery, and therefore the culmination of her adventure in Astapor included a planned emancipation of (tens of?) thousands of cruelly tortured killing machines.

This was by far her most well conceived strategic power move, yet it still hinged on a huge gamble.

You guys are conflating success with aptitude.

But this isn't necessarily a dig on her. All of the great conquerors, from the Huns to the Khans and Alexander, they all saw their fair share of luck, which only went to inspire loyalty, obedience, and, above all, determination in reaching the fulfillment of their manifest destiny among their followers.

I totally get where you're coming from as an individual, riverboatking; but here's the thing, this thread involves other people, and you're not the center of it.

You made a choice to read the books, and we all appreciate your honesty, but our appreciation doesn't alleviate you of the consequences brought on by your choice. You simply don't get to ask those sorts of questions anymore. You're a known bookreader, and so your opinion (whether supported by the show alone or not) carries an authority that has the power to steer discussion. We don't want you in here guiding discussion. We don't care about your curiosities. This isn't about you.

RBK sorry, you read the books. You are now a second class citizen, please post begging to be allowed to post in this thread and our overlord will get back to you.

I'm going back to my corner now.

Ya RBK, but we read into stuff like this. See the issue with posting ITT as a bookreader? It's no good.

Well rbk only said what I was going to say if asked to elaborate and there's nothing I can see about reading into his statements; ao it's fine with me.

Dany also learned how to lead from nothing. When she's sold to Khal Drogo that didn't exactly come with many perks. She learned how to make best of her situation in life. Because of her nfluence over her husband he was willing to be the first Dothraki to cross the narrow sea just to please her. Jorah sells her out an assassin for a pardon and changes his mind because of what he sees in her leadership qualities (yes he's also smitten by her beauty but I don't think this was nearly as big of a factor in that decision at the time).

Once she's left to die in the desert she faces death eye to eye. She has this deep confidence that she's as powerful as any of her great ancestors. So she starts from scratch. At this point she makes one mistake after another. That was the entire point of s2, that dragons alone were almost meaningless. At the gates of Qarth I wouldn't say she got lucky, Xaro didn't have pure intentions at all. It's not like he was just being a nice guy there. She can't even purchase a ship. Her negotiating skills are poor. She just gets played by the powers in Qarth; I mean ~all of her people are killed. This is where she hits bottom. She finds strength within to face the Warlock.

When she tells Jorah "but what of my magic" it's NOT exactly the dragons she's talking about. It's the same thing she faced in s1 in birthing them. Will to power or something is more appropriate. The Warlock is a powerful foe, she just trusts her abilities/instincts. You call it luck I call it intelligence. She is beginning to understand, Xaro teaches her the power of illusion and confidence even further.

In s3 she doubles down in her quest for power and doesn't repeat the mistakes of Qarth. She has the intelligence to recognize the political situation on the ground in Essos and from her own experience realizes there's an army to raise from the slaves. All of her foes lack this insight, all of her advisors lack it; she also recognizes talent in Missandei, Grey Worm, and Daario. She's proven by the end of s3 to be the most shrewd and intelligent leader in the world. The IT factor Jorah recognized and her own awareness of her abilities all on display.

This is what I meant by getting there with intelligence. I don't think I'm reaching at all.

Hodor is safe since Bran needs his wheels to chase down the white walkers.

tldr tho

HODOR

Speaking of Bran he's going to what warg all of the WW? That seemed to be what Jojen implied with "none of the kings of Westeros stand a chance against the WW army" thing. Why else are they going north. Maybe Bran gonna restore the Stark glory with a zombie army. Lolz.

But would you have prefaced your non-bookreading thoughts with the same qualifier he used? There's no reason for any of us to make a distinction like "from what I saw ONLY on the show" because all we have is the show. We don't know about how characters are portrayed in the books, or what happens to any of them in the future.

Maybe it's not such a big deal. Maybe it is. The truth of the matter is we shouldn't be wondering which other characters have grown/matured/transformed more than Dany. Now we are. Or at least I am.

Vix, Bran could warg a few key WWs who lead the zombies. He doesn't need to warg everyone. Right?

Not only what Jojen said, but also remember how Melissandre reacted to the news about the walkers. The incredibly important War of 5 Kings taking place in Westeros suddenly became meaningless.

I want to start a S4 deathpool... but I'm really afraid of spoilers. And I don't know who to pick.

Anyone in King's Landing seems like a good choice because there's no chance that everyone there survives the season, right? Right?? Stark girl has to be most safe of anyone. We've already ruled out a bunch of people ITT because their story line seems to be continuing - Arya, Dany, Jamie Lannister, Bran. What about Jon Snow? Went from unkillable in S3 to who knows? Probably still safe. Theon? Somehow survived weekly torture so not sure how he'd die, but his story line could end surly. I haven't seen Stannis's name come up but he probably has story line immunity, and I can't see the Red Fire priest leaving us. Jorah seems like the most likely person to die that isn't in Westeros. There is no way we get another season of Dany just steamrolling with no adversity.

I really don't think most of the Lannisters are safe but idk which one to pick. Also, everyone's reaction to the Red Wedding makes me believe that there isn't any similarly brutal family-destroying event coming soon, so odds make it tough to pick out one of them (and they could all survive obviously) so I'm going with Jorah. rip in peace bro.

edit: and I realized after posting this that it will be hard for Jorah to identify Jon's sword if he's dead.

Doggz why would you want to even start that discussion? What good comes out of it?

Nah, I seem what you mean.

I don't think he needed to preface that with any reading comment. The issue with readers is when they "help" or speculate and rbk did neither so not necessary to burn him at the stake.

I mean, the answer to that is emphatically no. Nobody has come close to her maturation. All the other characters are variations on who they were s1 and Dany is a different person entirely.