Saw this elsewhere and thought it was cool , I think the actual shot was longer too...

Nah it's portrayed as a weighted elevator. The kid just pulls the lever and it goes up or down automatically from what I can tell.

Well its just supposed to be a feeler attack to see how the wall's defenses are cuz Manse was told by Jon Snow there were 1000 men. What Im wondering is why did they waste the southern troops which was a huge asset on a feeler attack. They shoulda tested the defenses then sent in the southern scout party during the real attack.


Seems like Mance just wasted an asset in the southern troops that coulda been used a lot more effectively if it was part of the main attack.

Yup. I was bored 3/4 of the way through.

The DVD extras to the show actually have tons backstory and address the Iron Islanders specifically in this regard. Not sure wat the rules are with them thought regarding spoilers. Definitely check out the back stories on youtube tho, really cool backstory stuff presented in an interesting way.

We do not sow.

Yara "rescues" Theon, Jon attacking Craster's keep and now an entire episode of action. First two seemed as action for the sake of action, didn't really lead anywhere.

Compare that to how Robb's march towards KL in s2. There were a lot of battles but as far as I remember we didn't see a single minute of them.

Geez some of you people complain about realism in a show that has dragons in it.

Just enjoy it for what it is. This isn't a documentary on the History channel.

Ya I think I saw in an HBO interview that George RR Martin said north of the wall was like the size of Canada so it's definitely large enough to support more than the amount of people Mance has.

Few thoughts...

Why is everyone calling that attack just a small initial feeling out, kick the defense's tires a bit to gain knowledge for the real thing? I'm half convinced I missed a scene where Manse tells someone that they're using a 2 step strategy like that....barring that, I'm pretty sure that was the one attack they ever planned on. Sure, they have plenty of ammo left for further attempt(s), but consider the following:

a) They sent all of their southern crew at it at once, leaving no one behind for any further attacks

b) They sent their top fighters/leaders, as far as everything that has been implied (the ginger bearded dude has seemed like the #2 next to Mance from when Jon was there meeting Mande, that 'Theen' cannibal guy was the leader of that crew...basically every north-based antagonist the show has, outside of Mance, was all-in). Why would they set up their fiercest and most skilled fighters to die in a suicide mission unrelated to the main attack?

c) They sent that party of mammoths and giants to get through the tunnel, which only makes sense if they plan to overrun the whole place for good right then and there. It's doubtful that they planned on breaking through, taking a look inside, then leaving it alone for the REAL attack - the NW would seal that thing up permanently after realizing its vulnerability via round 1.

d) Mance has only ever referred to the attack as one attack, and his whole 'light the biggest fire the south has ever seen' was his big show to start it off. It's hard to believe that whole thing was just for the feeler round, given the general gravitas around it.

e) If the whole strategy was for a 2 part attack, why is it that the north-based ppl have only ever said anything about the one we just saw,and have literally never mentioned anything about it being iterative?

The way I took it during the episode, and still believe to be true, is that they ended up retreating due to the attack losing its momentum. All the leaders had already made their rush, so by the end there didnt seem to be any leaders to rally up the troops to make further charges. Instead, it was a large group of unorganized individuals waiting back to see how things progressed. And what they were seeing was that the tunnel-breaking crew of giants/mammoth failed, the climbers got owned by the huge blade, and the hand to hand fighting was stagnating.

So at that point, without a clear tunnel and with the fighting (including southern force) not making any discernable progress, they retreated to regroup and try it again in a more organized, focused manner.

Thats my whole thing. Additional thoughts:

-Am I the only one who is deeply annoyed with Gilly? She's just awful and I hate every second of screen time devoted to her, standing there with her crying baby and her overbite and front teeth hanging out and her eyes wide as dinner plates, constantly shocked...her personality is awful too - she's either yelling at Sam or being dumb about things like the concept of a name for her kid (she is Gilly afterall, and she previously resided at Craster's Keep, not "Old Nasty Guy's Keep")

- Just cause Sam joined the bros instead of hiding out with Gilly doesn't mean that he wasn't a giant vag during the attack. He mostly posted up behind the safety of the wall in front of him, helping Pip reload. So Pip ends up exposed to arrows at all times and he remains covered at all times. Let Pip duck and reload his own bow as needed, and get your own and do the same. Mostly he just played cheerleader the whole time.

Anyway, overall that episode was great entertainment from a great show. I can maybe see being disappointed with it since there are other cool things it could have been showing, but acting like it was bad TV and a waste of an hour is just redonk. Like you really wish you would have watched two reruns of Big Bang Theory or an always-rivoting episode of NCIS Cleveland at 9 on a Sunday over that episode.

When GoT was its best I had some eps where I didn't check how much time there was left at all, lately I've been averaging at about 2 checks per episode, for this one I probably checked 8-9 times and just really wished the ordeal would be over. Sure it was visually nice, if you're into that stuff. I just thought plot-wise it was incredibly cringe-worthy. The best part was that first we watched 55 minutes of them protect the castle, then when they finally managed to miraculously have it hold (which is logically flawed as per the posts above) the episode ended with Jon going "they'll just come back tomorrow and we'll have to do this same thing again lolz". What the **** is the point giving an hour-long episode to this crap when it doesn't even seem to help the story in any way (since it was already a losing battle, Jon could've left to find Mance before they came in the first place? What was the element about this episode that made Jon decide he needs to go now but couldn't go before?

I knew the show sucks when it focuses on just one subject but didn't know it could possibly suck this bad, if they keep this up I'm pretty close to just googling what happens and gg'ing the show.

how is Jon attacking Craster's Keep unnecessary action? You would rather them show the small force leaving the Castle Black then just showing up later like, "yep, we got'em guys!" No need to worry about Mance getting there and finding out I was full of **** and we only have 100 men."

Because that's what Jon Snow said.

And because its completely obvious since they only sent like .1% of their force.

That fire mance lit was the equivalent of a girl saying "is it in yet"?

The ******* commander of the Night's Watch who turned out to be a badass....what was he before taking the black?

It's almost like certain posters watched the episode on mute.

How about we apply this to people criticizing other people's opinions instead?

Just wanted to point out that cannibal boss guy with the axe totally stole Oberyn's twirl attack.

Seems like I'm the only one sad about Ygritte dying. More angry than sad though. Angry at Jon Snow and his ******ed choice to go back to try and stop 100k wildlings and giants with 100 stupid men and a few swords instead of staying in that cave with Ygritte hitting that til the end of his days. Man that guy knows nothing.

Not my favorite episode by any means, but c'mon at saying that was a wasted hour of television. Still better than 99% of anything on tv.

I still find the worst episode of GoT compelling television.

They built it up to this important event where Jon heads out to the keep where Bran is. It was the cliffhanger in one episode and the major event in another iirc. But it fizzled out into nothing, Bran doesn't meet Jon and Jon kills the evil bad dude. They spent a lot of time on it and it didn't progress the story, it was a build-up for action, i.e. needless action.

And yes, sending out a group to wipe them out without showing the attack would be ok. Much like in earlier seasons where they didn't show Robb's battles. Instead they spent the time progressing the story. Maybe the got a bigger budget and now feel they need to do action, maybe they always wanted to do action but didn't have the means until now. I don't know but I prefered it the old way.

RE: north of the wall not supporting 100k troops.

It's not about size, it's about climate. It's basically northern Siberia, which has never supported a large army. Even the Mongols didn't bother. The main source of food north of the wall appears to be meat, which means the ecological carrying capacity couldn't support groups as large as a thousand. I think that's a liberal estimate too, because I wouldn't be surprised if it couldn't even support groups of more than forty.

This largely depends on how much horticulture, fishing, and trapping they can do. Personally, I just assume that since it's a different world, there are some trees that flourish in mostly snowy conditions and provide abundant protein. I wish we were given a glimpse into Wildling life that has to do with markets and production. Something as simple as showing them netting large catches in rivers or carts carrying piles of some sort of feasible mass-produced plant-food. This would also help make them a realistic and empathic group. Right now the Wildlings are just a bunch of antagonists that exist only to kill people who keep them north of the wall. They have no culture. They're a cardboard cutout of the barbarian stereotype. Serious lack of development

I didn't like this episode at all.

But the elevator nits are lol. They actually built a working elevator on set. That's how it works.

All right fellas, we're doing this:

Fight to the death, who wins and how?


Warged Hodor wielding a giant warhammer vs 5 Meryn ****ing Trants

Ramsey Snow and Syrio vs Bronn and Karl Fookin' Tanner

Prime Jaime (both hands) vs Prime Oberyn (wants revenge but not enough that he dances around a fallen opponent). Winner vs Prime Drogo

Barristan vs Tormund Beardsbane and Daario

Hound and Podrick vs Brienne and Arya

Ser Pounce vs an entire platoon of the Satinborn, I mean the Tulipborn, I mean the Featherborn, I mean whatever the Ironborn think their pussy-asses are called

Ittlefinger vs Olenna in battle of wit

Blackfish with a bow and a bunch of arrows vs a giant starting from 200 yards out

ok, mini-rant incoming. I like the show, just need to get this one shat off.

GRRM has a lot of problems like this imo. His writing isn't super "tight" in this regard--very unClancylike, if you will. Not saying that every potential plot hole needs to be sealed lock-tight, but it does detract from the story when you have to keep hand-waving and excusing these things.

What's even worse, though, is that a lot of the characters have "character holes" where you can't explain their behavior in normal human terms. Very often, I'm watching the show, going, "wtf, real people don't think like that!" I thought that season 1 was very well-written in this regard, but it started going downhill from there.

I keep watching because it's still very high-quality television overall, but I'm starting to think GRRM may have bit off a bit more than he can chew.

Some other examples of "character holes":

Craster: There's an old man out in the wilderness surrounded only by 50 women, and when a bunch of armed young men show up, they need to show deference to him and take his bull**** because, apparently, "they need him." Um, no. You need to explain.

Danerys: Some teenage girl with no life experience finds herself at the head of a huge army. The decisions she's faced with pretty much just boil down to: should I destroy this city or not? Once she takes the city, all we see her do is, "pay this goat farmer," and "bad jorah, go away." This is such weak writing. This reflects the mentality of a 10 year old who thinks being king is about saying to this man, go there, and to that man, come here. Or of when I was a fresh-out-of-college graduate at a job thinking that management was deciding what ought to be done and giving the order. Managing difficult people, motivating them, keeping them loyal, understanding their interrelationships, etc. is much more interesting and difficult to understand, and our best writers have a go at it. GRRM just punts.

Oaths: Can't make it believable why someone would actually take a certain action? It's because he took an oath and he's very serious about it!

Tywin: Could GRRM let us in on how exactly he's a political genius instead of just declaring that he is by showing the brilliant results? Aside from that great scene with Arya and the meeting with Olenna, I can pretty much only remember scenes of him berating his children. Like your English teacher taught you in creative writing, "don't tell me, show me."

LF: Same thing. Ooh, he's so mysterious and conniving. He sees all and has planned everything out 10 chess moves in advance. Is it just me or does it seem like GRRM has just been making it up as he goes for a long time now? Something happens, the sinister look and camera angle implies that LF is responsible, and it ends up working out perfectly for him. Apparently, he's such a ninja that you'll never even see how he managed to pull it off, and what difficulties he overcame and personal struggles he dealt with in the process. Just take GRRM word for it that he's a badass character.

Lysa, Ramsay, the Mountain, Melissandre, etc.: If you make a character crazy enough, you don't need to put in the work of making them resemble actual humans, I guess.

I dunno, maybe the book is better.