Después de demasiado tiempo, decidí hacer un posteo que debí haber hecho mucho antes. Los detalles van a ser medio difusos dado que los hechos acontecieron en 2016.

En 2016, fui invitado a formar parte de un nuevo establo de jugadores formado por paulwiter y otro jugador. Firmamos un contrato un poco atípico: ellos se comprometían a backearme/coachearme para jugar torneos mid/high online y yo a cambio daba un % de mi profit. A su vez yo tenia que coachear jugadores debajo mio (de stakes mas bajos claro) y obtenía un % de sus ganancias también. En ese momento Heads Up, la modalidad que yo jugaba, estaba muriendo y me pareció una buena oportunidad para hacer una transición hacia MTTS.

A las pocas semanas de empezar aparecieron los problemas:
-Me bajaron el average buyin sin siquiera mirar historiales míos. La única razón fue que habia perdido un par de cajas.
-Las mensualidades que prometieron pagar no las pagaban (o al menos no a tiempo. El tiempo que yo estuve no pagaron ninguna si no me equivoco).
-No teníamos bankroll para jugar, sino que cada dia teniamos que esperar a recibir bankroll para poder abrir los torneos. Al final de la sesion nos hacian transferir el bankroll que nos quedaba en la cuenta y completar una tediosa planilla. Al preguntar muchas veces por qué este sistema (distinto al que habiamos charlado) nos decían que era la unica manera de mantener un orden en los números. Tiempo despues nos enteramos que en realidad cobraban % por cada transferencia que nos llegaban. Este % no era compartido con los players y lo mantenían en secreto. El mayor problema de toda esta dinámica es que varias veces te perdías torneos porque el bankroll no llegaba a tiempo. Una desprolijidad total.

Pasaron un par de meses y mi makeup se volvió mas grande. Mentalmente estaba muy mal por todo lo que ocurría en el establo y estaba considerando pagar mi MU e irme. Tuve la suerte de pinchar un torneo que me permitió pagar todo el MU y dejarles un profit bueno tanto a ellos como a mi. Si no me equivoco era uno de los players que mas profit les había dado hasta ese momento. Apenas cobré, me dijeron que envíe la totalidad del cobro (como siempre se hacia) y por desconfianza les dije que solamente iba a enviarles la parte que les correspondía (MU + profit) luego de hacer las cuentas para poder salirme del establo a lo cual ellos accedieron. En este entonces mi relación con paulwiter ya estaba muy desgastada. Como era todo un desorden y había decenas de transfers en el medio, hacer las cuentas llevo unos días. Una vez que estuvo el numero final, les dije que estaba ok y que estaba listo para enviarselo. Hasta ahí todo marchaba “aceptablemente”. Su socio era quien se estaba encargando de la liquidación junto con un empleado que tenían.

Acá es donde cometo un ERROR que me costó muchos dolores de cabeza: faltaba calcular cuanto correspondía splittear en starscoins. El numero era bien bajo (aproximadamente el 1% de profit que les habia hecho ganar. Mi recuerdo es que era 0.85% pero no estoy seguro). Por los incumplimientos en el contrato, la perdida de EV por no recibir dinero a tiempo y por bajarme el average buyin sin criterio, decidi ponerme firme en NO darles este ~1% que les "correspondía". En lo personal, el dinero era irrelevante. la única razón por la que lo quería era porque me hicieron pasar meses de mierda y era alguna manera de rebelarme ante las innumerables pisoteadas que me habían hecho.

Por qué digo que fue un error haber tomado este ~1%? Porque desde ese momento que les dije que no iba a darselos por estas razones expuestas, paulwiter se encargó de hablar mal de mi. Tanto que pasaron 7 años y me acaba de llegar un comentario de que hace unos días me tildó de estafador. La persona que dijo esto, luego se retracto, posiblemente para no entrar en un conflicto que no le sumaba nada. paulwiter, en este entonces, era una persona con mucho respeto en la comunidad por ser un excelente jugador, por lo que su palabra tenia bastante peso.

Tiempo después, su desorganizado establo quebró y tuvo muchos problemas económicos con diferentes jugadores. Tengo entendido que pagó una parte grande de las deudas que debía pero no todas. Conozco incluso un caso particular donde pago el monto nominal luego de varios años (sin interés alguno) y otro en el que la persona afectada dio por perdida lo que le debían. Sobre este ultimo caso desconozco los detalles precisos pero conozco varias personas que pueden confirmar su veracidad.

Por qué paulwiter hablo mal de mí durante años? La realidad, no lo sé. Fui uno de los pocos jugadores que le trajo profit en ese establo y siempre me comporte de manera correcta. Si tengo que especular, muchos del ambiente lo faneaban, cosa que yo no hacia en lo mas mínimo. Sumado a que fui el primero (creo que fui el segundo pero el otro chico se fue rápidamente porque decidió no jugar mas poker) en irme de su establo y que ese ~1% le sirvió de excusa. Ademas, años mas tarde, lo cruce en una mesa en Iguazu y me encargue, infantilmente, de tildarlo de "estafador" en frente a los 8 jugadores restantes con comentarios pasivo-agresivos. Incluso, en ese mismo torneo le dije personalmente que fue un error hacerle ese comentario infantil en la mesa, disculpándome por haber actuado estúpidamente.

Pienso que paulwiter es un estafador? A mi opinion, no. Se que previo a conocernos había sufrido una estafa grande por lo que tal vez su pasado moldeo su manera de actuar. Si puedo decir que durante el tiempo del establo fue muy desorganizado. Ademas, es una persona de trato cordial y, por cosas que escuche, entiendo que sufrió mucho su tiempo manejando el establo, por lo que seria injusto ponerle una etiqueta.

Tuve alguna vez problema con algún otro jugador en estos años? 2 veces:

1) Señor X quiso estafarme mintiendo sobre una transferencia que segun el habia hecho. Señor X luego se disculpo.

2) Señor Y, quien no era mi amigo, estaba en pareja con una chica, cuya mejor amiga era amiga mia en ese entonces. En un comentario totalmente casual e innecesario sugerí que en la modalidad que jugaba señor Y "había mucha suerte" (de alguna manera desmereciendo un logro particular que señor Y había tenido), por lo que tengo entendido que mi amiga le hizo sentir en alguna reunion (o algo así) que era un fish frente a su grupo. Señor Y se había portado muy bien conmigo en las pocas oportunidades que hablamos. Pedi disculpas a Señor Y, quien las acepto.

Con esto, quiero de alguna manera dar por finalizada una etapa. Si en algún momento alguien recibe algún comentario de ese estilo sobre mí, puede dirigirse a este posteo.

Motivo a cualquier jugador de poker que haya tenido un problema conmigo, que firme debajo con su nombre real y contando que problema tuvo. Tal es la confianza que tengo sobre mi integridad como persona.

Por ultimo, si tuviste algun problema con paulwiter, este no es el hilo para atacarlo. Solucionalo con el o arma tu propio hilo.

Sé que posiblemente nadie comente este hilo, pero agradezco a los que se tomaron 5 minutos para leerlo.





PD: el ~1% que me quede, lo done a una conocida fundación argentina.

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In english translated by ChatGPT:

After a long time, I decided to make a post that I should have made a long time ago. The details may be a bit fuzzy since the events took place in 2016.

In 2016, I was invited to be part of a new stable of players formed by paulwiter and another player. We signed a somewhat unusual contract: they agreed to back/coach me for mid/high online tournaments, and in return, I would give them a percentage of my profits. I also had to coach players below me (at lower stakes, of course) and receive a percentage of their winnings as well. At that time, the Heads Up format, which I played, was dying, and it seemed like a good opportunity for me to transition to MTTs.

A few weeks after starting, problems started to arise:
-They lowered my average buy-in without even looking at my previous results. The only reason was that I had lost a couple of buy-ins.
-The monthly payments they promised were not being paid (or at least not on time. As far as I remember, they didn't pay any during the time I was there).
-We didn't have a bankroll to play with; instead, we had to wait every day to receive the bankroll before we could enter tournaments. At the end of the session, we had to transfer the remaining bankroll back to their account and fill out a tedious form. When we asked why this system (different from what we had discussed) was being used, they said it was the only way to keep track of the numbers. Later on, we found out that they were earning a percentage for each transfer we received. This percentage was not shared with the players, and they kept it a secret. The biggest problem with this whole setup was that many times you missed tournaments because the bankroll didn't arrive on time. It was a complete mess.

A couple of months passed, and my makeup kept increasing. Mentally, I was in a very bad place because of everything happening in the stable, and I was considering paying off my makeup and leaving. Luckily, I won a tournament that allowed me to pay off all my makeup and give them a good profit as well. If I remember correctly, I was one of the players who had given them the most profit up to that point. As soon as I received the money, they told me to send them the entire amount (as was usually done), but due to my lack of trust, I told them I would only send them their part (makeup + profit) after doing the proper calculations, to be able to leave the stable. They agreed to this. By that time, my relationship with paulwiter was already very strained. Since everything was so disorganized and there were dozens of transfers involved, it took them a few days to do the calculations. Once we had the final amount, I told them it was okay and that I was ready to send it. Everything was going "acceptably" until then. His partner was the one handling the settlement along with an employee they had.

Here's where I made a MISTAKE that caused me a lot of headaches: the only thing missing was to calculate how many StarsCoins should be splitted. The amount was quite small (approximately 1% of the profit I had made for them. I believe it was around 0.85%, but I'm not sure). Due to the contract breaches, the loss of expected value by not receiving money on time, and the arbitrary lowering of the average buy-in, I decided not to give them this ~1% that was supposedly "theirs." Personally, the money was irrelevant to me. The only reason I wanted it was because they had put me through months of misery, and it was a way for me to rebel against the countless mistreatments I had endured.

Why do I say it was a mistake not to give them this ~1%? Because from that moment on, when I told them I wouldn't give it to them for the reasons I mentioned, paulwiter started speaking ill of me. So much so that 7 years have passed, and I just received a comment a few days ago stating that he labeled me as a scammer. The person who made this comment later retracted it, possibly to avoid getting involved in a conflict that wouldn't benefit him. At that time, paulwiter had a lot of respect in the community for being an excellent player, so his word carried significant weight.

Later on, his disorganized stable went bankrupt and had many financial problems with different players. I understand that he paid off a large portion of the debts he owed, but not all of them. I even know of a particular case where he paid off the nominal amount after several years (without any interest), and another case where the affected person considered the debt lost. I'm not aware of the precise details of the latter case, but I know several people who can confirm its veracity.

Why did paulwiter speak ill of me for years? The truth is, I don't know. I was one of the few players who brought them profits in that stable, and I always behaved properly. If I were to speculate, many people in the community were fans of paulwiter, which was not the case for me at all. Also, years later, I crossed paths with him at a table in Iguazu, and I foolishly referred to him as a "scammer" in front of the remaining 8 players, making passive-aggressive comments. Even in that same tournament, I personally told him that it was a mistake to make that childish comment at the table, apologizing for my foolish behavior.

Do I think paulwiter is a scammer? In my opinion, no. I know that prior to meeting us, he had been a victim of a major scam, so perhaps his past shaped his behavior. However, I can say that during the time of the stable, he was very disorganized. Additionally, he is a person who treats others cordially, and from what I've heard, I understand that he suffered a lot during his time managing the stable, so it would be unfair to label him.

Have I ever had problems with any other players during these years? Twice:

1)Mr. X tried to scam me by lying about a transfer he claimed to have made. Mr. X later apologized.
2)Mr. Y, who was not my friend, was in a relationship with a girl whose best friend was my friend at the time. In a completely casual and unnecessary comment, I suggested that in the format Mr. Y played, "luck played a significant role" (in a way, belittling a particular achievement Mr. Y had). From what I understand, my friend made him feel uncomfortable in some gathering or something similar, implying that he was a fish in front of their group. Mr. Y had always treated me well in the few interactions we had. I apologized to Mr. Y, and he accepted my apologies.

With this, I want to somehow put an end to this chapter. If anyone receives any comments of that nature about me, they can refer to this post.

I encourage any poker player who has had a problem with me to sign below with their real name and share the issue they experienced. That's how confident I am in my integrity as a person.

Finally, if you have had any issues with paulwiter, this is not the thread to attack him. Feel free to make your own post about it or address it privately with him. This is just my personal experience, and I don't want it to be a witch hunt.

Thank you for reading, and I hope this clarifies any doubts or misconceptions about the situation.



PS: The remaining ~1% that I kept, I donated it to a well-known Argentine foundation.

Dos comentarios/preguntas que me hicieron llegar conocidos:

1) Por que abrí este hilo 7 años despues? Solamente para dejar limpio mi nombre. Ya ni siquiera juego poker.
2) "No me quedo del todo claro tu opinion sobre paulwiter". Como dije arriba, no considero a paulwiter una mala persona ni un estafador. Incluso, no desaconsejaría a nadie hacer negocios con él. Solo llegue a un punto en que me canse de cualquier comentario casual que pueda decir sobre mí, y tener que explicar la historia entera a cualquier persona que me diga algo al respecto.

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Two comments/questions that acquaintances sent me:

Why did I open this thread after 7 years? Only to clear my name. I don't even play poker anymore.
"I didn't fully understand your opinion on paulwiter." As I mentioned above, I don't consider paulwiter a bad person or a scammer. In fact, I wouldn't discourage anyone from doing business with him. I just reached a point where I got tired of any casual comment he might make about me and having to explain the whole story to anyone who mentions it.

ok put the english part back in chatgpt and ask it to summarize it

here you go:

In 2016, I made a decision to join a poker stable led by paulwiter. The agreement was unique: they would provide backing and coaching for mid/high online tournaments, and in return, I would give them a percentage of my profits. However, things quickly went awry. They arbitrarily lowered my buy-ins without considering my past performance, failed to pay the promised monthly amounts, and implemented a convoluted bankroll system causing me to miss tournaments. I discovered they were secretly earning a percentage from our transfers.

Despite the challenges, I persevered and won a tournament, clearing my debt to the stable. Yet, due to the mistreatment I endured, I chose not to give them a small portion (~1%) of my profits as a rebellious act. Regrettably, this sparked paulwiter to speak ill of me for years, tarnishing my reputation in the poker community.

Subsequently, the stable encountered financial troubles, although paulwiter did repay a significant portion of the debts owed to other players. I want to clarify that I don't consider him a scammer, but rather disorganized. I admit to having conflicts with other players as well, which I resolved through apologies and understanding.

To conclude this chapter, I stand confident in my integrity. I encourage anyone who had issues with me to come forward, sign below, and share their experiences. It is important to note that this post is not intended as a platform to attack paulwiter, but rather to share my personal journey. Lastly, I donated the portion I withheld to a well-known Argentine foundation.

if i understood this correctly, you are both wrong
seems like they are terrible stakers, which you would be right to warn people
BUT that doesn't give you right to randomly steal a "small" (irrelevant that it is small, but obvious stealing $1000 is less bad than stealing $10,000 which is less bad than stealing $100,000.....
if you made them 100k profit, doesn't make it any more ok to steal 1k from them (just as an example, i obviously don't know the actual numbers).
i think calling you a scammer is arguably blowing things out of proportion but you did steal money from them

the fact you have to wait for transfers each day and sometimes miss tourneys sucks as hell but that is why you leave (as you did)
the fact they earn % on transfers and not tell you is meh. not ideal but if you agree to their conditions i don't think it's mandatory to disclose. let's say instead of a % on transfers, a site simply says "get horses to play in our games, we will give you additional rb/incentives to do so" - very similar thing.
i would personally disclose to my horses if i had any but i don't think they are "scamming" you or w/e.

everyone sucks here tbh

Hello OMGClayDol. I want to thank you for taking the time to read it and make a comment. About me "stealing" I respectfully disagree because:
1) I entered the stable because I was going to play higher stakes than the ones I could on my own (and because of the coaching too). The fact that they decreased my average buyin weeks after starting just because of bad luck, made me lose money (EV).
2) I missed many tournaments since the bankroll did not arrive, so they were "stealing" me that money (EV) in order to earn % on deposits (non disclosed).
There were other contract breaches but I believe those two already prove my point.
So, by keeping the Starscoins I was getting back (a small) part of what I was owed.

Having said that, I see your point and, even though I disagree with it, I am okay with refunding that ~1% if a majority of players think that is what is correct. As I said, the only reason I wrote this thread is because I am tired of this person speaking ill of me, even after many years. I just want to clear my name and move on.

Thanks again.

you can justify stealing money from the stable all you want but your thievery is rightfully going to stifle future business opportunities. i know i'd never do business with a vigilante like yourself.

Who cares?

WOW THANK YOU for that valuable input

Cliffs?

If your stats are fine in pt4/h2n/hm3 and your backers force to play lower buy in you can leave the stake imo. If a backer stakes you for abi 500$ he cant force you down at abi 100$. This is crazy. Unless you are punting, playing bad, stats are off. I had no idea such terrible people exist. It is obvious paulwiter didnt have enough money. I cant understand how some people are running their business like this. I guess i was fortunate enough to work with an amazing person in mtts and never had any issues

Btw if you win 10k or 10m and you steal 1k you are a scammer. I dont understand the thought process, is ok to do it and seriously you take the risk damaging your reputation for 1k, jesus christ, i will never understand some people

i am only hearing your side of the story, nor have i seen the contract so i can't really confidently reply. but normally, if you think they wronged you, you should get an arbitrator to make a ruling (such as them paying a penalty, or you being allowed to leave the stake earlier than agreed, or whatever else)
you don't just keep an arbitrary amount of money to balance it out.
why keep 1%? why not keep 5%? or 20%?

i don't know you as a person, if i had to guess you would be trustworthy and i would be fine doing a trade with you or maybe some other business. but i don't think this is an appropriate way to handle things. and i don't think he is wrong to complain to others about what you did, is my main point.

it is totally possible (perhaps even likely) that you are both wrong, as i suggested in my first post. therefore you warning people they are bad stakers/bad to work with, and them warning people that you scammed them can be both be 'correct'. someone may be "more correct" - i.e. what they did could be worse, but again i don't want to judge too much without hearing their side. i am making my opinions based on what you said/admitted to.
i mean, technically correct. for example, if someone steals $10 and someone says they are a scammer, they are still technically "right", but perhaps it is an overreaction relative to the crime. i don't know to what extent they complained about you to others, or what else they allege you did etc.

uhh..? op, all the ppl involved and anyone who may consider doing business with op ever again?

Hi guys! I never thought I would get these many comments. The feedback I am getting from you guys is really valuable.

The reason I chose ~1% was because I calculated how much EV I did lose for missing the many tournaments at the beginning of the sessions and, even though the EV lost was much more than that, I was ok with that outcome. I did not even consider the stakes decreased EV. By the time I told them that, they agreed with it (after discussion for sure and I understand that they could have "agreed" but not really agreed) and they did not propose to get an arbitrage nor anything, which I would had accepted without a doubt.

Imagine that if I thought that was a possibility, I would had not taken that decision. If I remember correctly, paulwiter never personally told me anything about the ~1% (that discussion was with his partner and an employee, who never said anything about me for what I know) so maybe he would have tagged me of "scammer" anyway just because he did not like me.

Thanks to the many comments here, I see that I definitely should have started a public arbitration or something like that. The reason why I did not do it is because I am not a confrontational person and as said above, I thought that we were ok. So I remained quiet and kept on living my life. Also, when this situation happened, I discussed the idea of keeping the ~1% with several players, which they all agreed to. I tried to put some of the most important facts in the narration, but remember this happened in 2016. As said above, I am open to get an arbitrage on the ~1% if the community thinks it is fair.
But as you said, there always are two sides of the story. In my narration, I tried to be as fair for paulwiter as I could. Maybe paulwiter won't even read this, but I encourage him to write his side of the story too, which will definitely be useful. As I said several times, I am not here to judge or accuse paulwiter of anything. Even people told me that, after the stable issues, they made other business with him without problems.

I knew that by opening this thread, I would expose myselfs for opinions I would not agree with, but that was the point of it. The only way of clearing my name is by objective input from people that were not part of the situation.

Also, the GPT summary that Pakichu777 wrote, lacks a lot of important information, so before commenting please read the whole version and the comments.

Thanks a lot for taking the time.

Definitely feels like you stole 1%. And then you called the guy a scammer at a poker table in front of a bunch of people. Idk I'd be pretty mad too. I'm guessing once he reads this your feud will be over though. Seems silly for either of you to keep this going after 7 years , there are people out there scammed for 100s of thousands and we are here talking about PRACTICE.... whoops i meant 1%.

Ps. Chat gtp is incredible, I had no idea it could translate so fluently.

Hello MastaAces. Thanks for commenting. I am not sure if you read the entire post or just the GPT summary (which is not accurate at all). In case you want to give me more feedback after reading (all of it) and the comments, I would appreciate it.

Hi RalphWaldoEmerson. Thanks for commenting. I definitely care about any feedback. I spent more than 10 years in the industry with very few mishaps. It is unfair for some people to have an opinion about me from what this other person says. Now, If anyone receive that information, they can read this thread to make their own conclusions, but at least having the truth.

Thanks a lot.

Hi LimpDitka. Thanks for commenting. The situation where I called him "a scammer" in front of a bunch of people wasn't because of my personal experience, but for other friends' situations. Today, some of these friends reached out to me wanting to comment their experiences with paulwiter but I asked them not to (though I do not know what they would do. Free speech I guess). I do not want this thread to become a witch hunt. If they have issues with this man, they should addressed it with him personally.
Imagine my situation, it is annoying to open a thread SEVEN years later. I do not even play poker anymore. I am a honest man tired of this situation that wants to move on. As said above, I am open to get an arbitrage on the ~1% if the community thinks it is fair.

Thanks a lot.

Here's the appropriate way to handle that situation: "Hey, you've decreased my ABI and I'm missing tournaments because you aren't sending on time, so I'm going to settle up now and leave the stake"

Here's the inappropriate way to handle that situation: "I'm taking something that we should split and keeping it"

Hi EvolvedSavage. Thank you for commenting. Remember I could not leave the stake without paying the MU.

From all the objective feedback I am getting, I can see that the way I acted was at least controversial. I would like to propose OMGClayDol to arbitrage if:
A) I should refund the ~1% + 0.27% (the 0.27% comes from the CPI inflation calculator, in order to consider the purchasing power adjusted. The number was calculated assuming 1% but in reality it is gonna be a bit less because the 1% is an approximation)
B) I should refund the ~1%.
C) I should refund part of the ~1%.
D) I should refund none of it.
I am choosing him because he took the time to make several comments and ask interesting questions. Checking his profile I have seen that he is a well known reg, so I am okay with this person taking the decision, even though I do not know him. If someone has an objection or thinks he is not a good fit please let me know. I believe it is ok that paulwiter does not play a role in this decision, since he does not lose anything with it. He can only win. Also, I consider I have portrayed the situation (more than) fairly. As I said above, I encourage paulwiter to add any relevant information.

OMGClayDol, if you are ok with it, just write A/B/C/D and I will do it. I just wanna finish this.

Thanks a lot.

I can't remember something that I was never told.

But even if that was true, if they did something to violate the contract, then you can legally and ethically leave the stake.

I think it was clear when I said this "I was considering paying off my makeup and leaving" but you are right. Although what you are saying is not wrong, I think that if I took that decision during that time, the outcome would have been WAY worse. But I can be wrong, for sure.

Thanks again for the feedback.

I like you and your honesty OP. I don’t think you should have to pay 1k from 7 years ago that went to charity instead of rubbish, now defunct staking organization. Omgclaydol is overthinking this, imo

Thank you for your feedback and the nice words. I also consider I should not give that ~1% (to add more details it is way less than 1k but that is not the point) to the defunct stable because of the reasons I gave. But I constantly do lots of mistakes so I might be wrong about this. I can accept the outcome of any fair trial since I know my integrity as a person. As I repeated many times, I am not here to judge paulwiter. I am pretty sure that he does not even want/need this ~1%. He is probably just annoyed for me opening this thread and naming him. The same way I am annoyed for receiving comments doubting my honesty. The situation happened 7 years ago so him and me, are both different people. I even emphasized that the latest comments I received from people doing business with him, were positive.

I am just using this forum to tell my experience and clear my name, which is in the boundaries of free speech. I have not thought that this thread would have these many views and comments. I am glad for all the feedback I am receiving.

Thanks a lot.

Buddy how much do you owe the guy? Just pay him his $200 if it buys you peace of mind?

i don't think it is that simple of a decision to make, i would have to think it through and probably listen to the other side as well. in addition, seems like english is a little bit of a barrier, so i would risk some misunderstanding also.
so i don't want to make the decision, sorry. as a side note i think if both sides can kind of agree to move on and "forgive" it would probably be mutually beneficial/good for the mental health etc etc. both being a bit unhappy how this ended even though both likely had good intentions/think they are right is a bit unfortunate and unnecessary. i think there is not much reason both can't move on and learn from their own potential mistakes, and hopefully do smooth business in the future with orders.
all the best