I actually took away the posts temporarily because I am a moderator here at 2+2 and would like to see the direction/stance that 2+2 has on this subject. I don't care about what I posted before- I just thought that with me being a moderator, I want to be sure and clear what 2+2's stance is before leaving those up.

Once we come to a decision, I'm happy to return those posts and own it. I will go through your other comments as well.

I still have the same stance as I did before. I believe that posting IDs is one of the only ways that backers have a chance at getting scammed money back. I gave my reply here:

I actually took away the posts temporarily because I am a moderator here at 2+2 and would like to see the direction/stance that 2+2 has on this subject. I don't care about what I posted before- I just thought that with me being a moderator, I want to be sure and clear what 2+2's stance is before leaving those up.

Once we come to a decision, I'm happy to return those posts and own it. I will go through your other comments as well.



In the past, other backers posting IDs has actually helped us in a few cases with scammers. We have had some scammers who applied to us and we compared their IDs/names with some of the posted negative feedback and we were able to avoid a stake with that person (and a scam).

Why not? 2+2 has a marketplace that many backers pay money for advertising. In a industry like poker, where there are many sketchy/scammy people all over the place, one has to safeguard themselves in any way possible. Honestly, when a negative feedback post goes up, it becomes one in the same: You are both warning other backers as well as giving the scamming player an incentive to make right on the situation and pay you back the money. As stated before, there are no punishments or repercussions for these scammers whatsoever.


There is enough discussion on this topic previously and I will differ to Bobo.

The legality of posting IDs has been beaten to death we should stick to what is acceptable and what isn't from 2+2s perspective and as human beings. Saying that id be happy to bet my $1000 vs anyones $300 that posts such as the one below are illegal.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=4366

Can ask several online lawyers in different jurisdictions with the loser paying the costs. Happy to escrow with someone reputable. Pointless to keep banging on about it but if anyone wants to put their money where their mouth is feel free to PM me.

Ninja edit was some type lame joke, obviously it not it direct meaning.
Sure, i don't really care much about posts being removed, timing or reasons and not discussion what will be productive for this thread.
"Sketchy" might not be best word. Dunno, maybe different softer word, English is not my first language, again don't care much also about orange previous posts or removal, just bringing some attention relevant posts.
But edit note says nothing about what what was removed, and poster use theses sentences: "I do think that IDs and addresses should be edited out of the pictures if they are posted", " I would assume that most stables that do post IDs have something in their agreement that allows them to do so" but don't mention about doing it himself previously or about agreements he used. He is not obligated to do it, just bringing attention to relevant posts.
Again don't care much about it and thread is not about it so it likely not best time use anyway.

Personal details for punishment/deterrent will be posted anyway irrelevant if i think that should not be done or not and irrelevant if 2+2 allow it or not.
Poker staking deals is pretty unique, money is involved but no legal terms have been made so staker can't legally enforce debt payments like official creditors could do it without posting ID/address publicly.
So it basically very gray area with unique culture where huge debts is made without legally binding documents signing of debt terms and not being able enforce debt with authorities. In this type culture there will not be black and white answer as there is no legal debt, ID/address is given to creditor as "tool" for recovery debt but there is no strict lines from higher authority (governments/laws ect.) how theses deals should be made and how money should be recovered or what information should be posted in specific cases but there is some very general culture what basically have been created and changed by stakers/community itself (I would think staking culture now is in very unhealthy place compared to years ago) what again is very unique situation.

While i will not talk about moral values and legality ect. i explained risks affiliated with using very sensitive information what have goal of punishment/deterrent, we cannot say "I am using this very sensitive information for punishment/deterrent purposes but i don't put this person in risks affiliated with this action", that just stupid. -
I explained previously in this thread that 2+2 platform specifically creates listing for criminal use/there is other alternative platforms.
I also previously explained that it potentially put person in dangerous situation for extended period of time over 75$ deal.
+bla bla something about legality
Theses arguments already should be enough to remove posts.

Again it like asking me why you should not steal from someone when you ask me why someone should not post ID/Proof of address/photo over 75$ debt owned. I should ask you how you think it reasonable culture for staking community because for me it just insanity.

When there is 10000$'s changing hands every day in stables but when someone run away with 100$ there is established acceptable punishment to post ID/address ect with all potential risks it seem poker staking culture have become very unhealthy and changed lot from years ago.
While you previously mentioned you don't think sum of money is consideration, for me personally treating someone who stole 100$ and is essentially fish and established poker pro who stole 20000$ is just crazy for me (maximum payback is 100$ and 20000$ but same extremely sensitive information is posted about them.)
But maybe our moral values is so far away that you maybe see both cases identically same.

I would probably not argue or try get posts removed if only posts with 10000$+ involved was with very sensitive information not posts about 75$-200$ as i don't care about protecting rich guys/big poker pro who gamble and get in trouble playing highest games and don't want sell their house to pay off poker debts.

It just my personal view and from where i am coming, someone else who post in this thread potentially would have totally different reasons why he think sensitive information should be removed or allowed. I can talk about just my personal perspective not everyone posting.

I don't disagree mostly. Just more or less trowing something out there.

We can agree to disagree about legality.
We are not lawyers but new regulations have given me more options if 2+2 decide to keep all information posted even if it not lead nowhere at end and i just waste time, 5 years ago there was stone age regulations for data protection.

I would see real names being able help future backers to avoid some risky individuals who is associated with that name and surname. I don't have strong position for allowing/not allowing real name as i can see obvious benefits.
But text from ID image (Like passport picture) is not searchable in thread/google so i don't see how ID image helps to that huge majority of times.

If you want argument with 2+2 advertising and 2+2 taking money from stakers and that being reason for allowing ID's/address being posted, then it bring discussion some closer to line where 2+2 directly/indirectly benefit from allowing theses posts.

I don't have issue with information for future backers protection (Name, usernames, emails ect.). Or whatever information is reasonable information for information purposes and clearly helps future backer (Address/phone/Picture of ID don't help future backers)
For me issue starts when 2+2 take responsibility onto themselves to be platform for helping backers get repaid (allowing posts with punishment/deterrent purposes and with all risks associated with it), backers should have plan themselves what they do if someone run and 2+2 don't need be essential part of this plan, they will find other ways like other platforms to host this sensitive information/contacting facebook contracts or whatever additional moves they are making nowadays or whatever is their plan with people who run with money.

But again if 2+2 decide to take role of platform for punishments/deterrent what is ultimately 2+2 decision (until no higher authority then 2+2 administration is in play), then it need clearly be stated that "we are allowing this and that information" not use original post with one rules that don't allow this information but meanwhile in practice use totally different rules what allow it every time it posted.

To expand little more with some practical example:

This trowing some ideas out there for discussion, not specifically behind this idea or anything like that.

There was text in original post what was not enforced strongly making posts of 200$ deals to break every OP rule without being "special circumstance".

"3) AOL IM, emails, city, etc. Phone numbers, street addresses, and similar info is not permitted. Contact a mod about special circumstances."

Maybe something like very low information allowed without permission to not get cases where everything is posted over 75$ deal.
But meanwhile if case is outrageous 2+2 administration/2+2 community can allow for some reason or another reason and explaining decision to allow for deals of 5000$-20000$ involved/other non $ factors or similar being posted with more sensitive information.

Just trowing ideas, not behind idea strongly.

I would be against putting all "scammers" in same category (if this category is not single category where very low information is being allowed).

Just from stance of being human being.

Obviously if someone make decision that he will run away with 200$ knowing his sensitive information will be published he is not in his best life situation financially, mentally and is down on his knees in life already for whatever reasons. Allowing this person information being published in same fashion as someone who is shameless high stakes pro playing high stake tournaments for 1000$ and always being in debts with lot people because his lifestyle choices is totally different situation.
(Also backer potential payback is 25x to 100x bigger between theses situations).

There is something between like 10k makeup have been built playing micro-low stakes and it questionable what category it fits in as theses situations seem more double sided where backer stupidly give more and more money when player is down 500 bi even when it just burning good money after bad money and player being irresponsible with his backer money playing too high for his technical skill level-mental game at that moment/not reducing stakes.

I would think situations is very different and they need to be treated very differently.
I don't have all answers and obviously we cannot analyze every situation when it come in but some generalizations that player who decide run with 200$ need be protected more from backer posting sensitive information (not putting person down in his life more then he is already when he decide he need steal 200$ from someone) then high stakes pros who is in debts with everyone because he just spend too much money for me make lot sense.

I did notice now you are taking down some information also on some different posts not just your own as no one was posting us about it and you did not mention it in your first post in this thread. I might overreacted thinking you was removing information from only your posts and not anyone else before posting in thread as i checked them first after your post.
My apologies.

We personally have the player take a picture of themselves with their IDs. We were able to recognize their faces and also other clues (them using their middle names as first names/old posts on other forums/etc) to identify scammers. I'm not saying this is a common situation ever and it's very rare, but we were able to help ourselves from being scammed.

Sadly there are not many measures that backers can take when players scam. 2+2 and other forums are the only platforms that we can really use in order to get the word out and warn others. Of course we can make specific sites for scamming individuals, but it's hard to see those sites without a platform. Here's an extreme example of one measure people can take: http://matthewcloepfilisatheif.com/

There is Poker Fraud Alert as well, but that site does not have the viewership that 2+2 does.

In regards to posting an ID on $10k scams vs. $200 scams, I can see that view.

Dear 2+2 administration team,
Please remove our post: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...postcount=4366

I apologise if we broke any law or caused any offence, or inconvenience to the 2+2 admins.

We currently have our own small claims lawsuit pending against this player, and that 2+2 post serves no benefit to us personally.

Note that had we posted something about this player earlier on 2+2, that he probably wouldn't have been able to scam that other individual. I don't think there is any doubt that an area for posting about thieves on 2+2 is important. The question is, what amount of information is needed. A screen name isn't enough because it can be changed. A full name potentially isn't enough either because they can open an account in their family or friends names. (Bogdan opened another account in his cousins name). Are we allowed to use his first name or is that illegal?
A full name, all screennames and an address is better but people can move address, and change screennames.
After what we posted, it was highly likely he would never scam the poker community again.

As a topic for conversation:

Is it illegal to post identification information if this player agreed to a contract explicitly stating that his private information will be published should he break the terms and conditions of the contract?

I can seeing very rare cases where scammer is identified by his face picture but something what is very rare like finding someone from picture should not be argument to allow 100 ID's posted in thread.

I think in post there is not enough distinction for theses things:

Information:
Information to warn others. (Name,usernames ect.) - should be allowed in 2+2
Information to get potentially repaid (ID, address, phone ect.) - in question if should be allowed in 2+2

Viewership:
Viewership from poker community/random poker players (Twoplustwo increase visibility to random 2+2 users but it irrelevant viewership to initiate repayments)
Viewership from google search/persons in his life (I would think this is what initiate repayments and other platform or Website can be used with same results).

Clearly your example website is doing great job with google "matthew cloepfil" search (Potentially lot better then 2+2 post would do) and that is what i would think initiate repayments from "scammer" as it risk that people in his life now or in future might potentially see this information if searched in search engine his name. What 2+2 post do is create viewership to random poker players/poker community what i would think is irrelevant for scammer as he don't care about poker community anyway.
(Also refer to this post and this post for previous posts on topic of 2+2 vs other platforms)
(Refer to this post and this post about additional risks for using 2+2 forum vs other platforms like it basically creating private information directory for criminals and increasing risk of identity theft/real life dangerous situations while not increasing viewership to relevant parties/google that much (Things what initiate repayments) but potentially increase viewership to only 2+2 users and criminals)

Why is website what you can build for very cheap extreme example?

Contracts have to be lawful in the first place to have any meaning. If apple added a sentence to the iTunes terms and conditions that you had to pay them $1000 for every song you listened to and you signed it would that be enforcable?

Gl with your claim against this player.

Definitely. Likely for multiple reasons, but the easiest to argue is that consent can be withdrawn at any time making such a clause useless.

GDPR, article 7

(...)

The data subject shall have the right to withdraw his or her consent at any time.

(...)

I will not go into details about platform specifications/amount of money over again, you can refer earlier posts about that.

Overall theses posts strike me as black and white thinking posts where every "scammer" is same, every situation is same and effect on staker/player is same from same information posted whatever player is full time player or not and regardless amount stolen and that every platform create same dangers for person who details been posted ect. ect.

Just trowing some thoughts out there to hear what others think about them...

I think full thread tittle is saying this - "privacy - what should people allowed post about alleged scammers with no conditions, any amount involved and no permission from anyone on 2+2"

We are trying to figure out what is total lowest baseline to allow anyone who come post with no conditions, 30$ being involved and no permission from anyone in 2+2.

Example post: "I gave my friend 30$ for 888 swordfish tournament but he used it in party. This is information i will be posting because that is what seem to be acceptable in this forum to be posted over every case with no conditions/permission even when i have ID/address/phone on my friend what i could post."
Example post: "I staked player for nl25, he lost 3 buy-ins for 75$ and for some reason stopped responding to messages, send me bankroll back but we are out of 75$, this is information i will be posting because that is what seem to be acceptable in this forum to be posted over every case with no conditions/permission even when i have ID/address/phone on this player." (There is actually some 75$-200$ cases with ID's on forum still)

I am just thinking decision what is made by 2+2 about "baseline information allowed" need fit also example where friend have stolen 30$ for party or some stable is out of 75$.

Then building it up with conditions/special circumstances/exceptional 2+2 permissions (Probably best if rare cases with specific 2+2 permission) for more information being allowed. (If 2+2 ever want allow more information then baseline defined information)

For me main issue is not more information being posted at some rare cases but that staking culture have came to level where stakers feel free to do it over every player they lost money with and main "rules maker" 2+2 (Having biggest database of poker scammers by far and where most stakers come warn others and/or try get repaid by posting sensitive information like ID/address/phone ect.) been allowing it for long time over any case.

Right, when you decide to respond to the same post for a 2nd or 3rd time, you're not required to post all the same things again.

Nope. I just don't think we need to get this thread bogged down with the discussion of some arbitrary threshold where certain information is allowed to be posted. I just wanted to have a discussion of what should or shouldn't be allowed. But at the same time, I'm not saying you can't discuss it - I just don't want us to get bogged down on that point. And I was giving my own opinion on a threshold.

I'm not sure why you quoted the second post, as the quote above really doesn't relate to it. You had been saying that if people want to post details to punish people, they can do it on other sites but not here. That struck me as odd - I'd think if you were against it, you'd be against it anywhere.

No, the title is saying "Privacy - what should people be allowed to post about alleged scammers?", because that's exactly what I wanted us to discuss.

No, we're not.

Just let the discussion happen; we're not looking for anyone to set parameters on the discussion, thanks.

Yes, i agree some of my recent posts was in territory what is not exactly about tittle post, with some arbitrary lines and some random figurative thoughts about discussion. Probably also some pretty stupid ideas.

I agree, I don't think there is lot room for random arbitrary lines for what information at what arbitrary point is allowed.
About baseline was thinking more that 95%-99.9% posts would be in same category including very "innocent" (Figurative speech for friend loan/2 buyin loss and sending roll back) cases and maybe theses is cases what need be taken more into consideration in this decision making process and then if 2+2 want do "special circumstances" that totally different topic for different thread.

About "I'd think if you were against it, you'd be against it anywhere", i am against using it anywhere and in my world it would be lot more strictly illegal then it is now but i can't discuss/impact it as much as 2+2 because most cases i don't even know(!!!) * about random staker decision to create random website.
Note I would also think there is no purpose to link website in negative feedback thread if website is created, i am not saying that issue is that information is hosted on 2+2 platform specifically but that it create lot more dangerous private information directory/search engine or whatever you want call **** load sensitive information in same place for anyone to see with whatever intentions (everything is beautifully listed together and someone with bad/dangerous intentions can just regularly check for new sensitive information) then random websites all around web as criminals would need know what to search to find theses ID's/Addresses/Phones ect. while viewership can be same/better with website for people in person life/for future people in person life/google search for his name ect. what initiate repayments (2+2 community/poker community viewership is irrelevant as scammer not care about poker community and don't initiate repayments).
*About me not knowing: Basically if there is no additional viewership from people in person life/his name in google what initiate repayments from 2+2 also allowing this information (If 2+2 don't allow this information being posted anyone, stakers will adjust and use different platforms like websites more/social media or whatever and get similar if not better viewership for relevant parties what potentially initiate repayments), there need be good reason for random poker community member like me to know about it (Me knowing about it don't get anyone paid but put this information in lot more listed fashion with 100 other ID's/Addresses/Phones for anyone to search around and abuse).

can you please leat this thread talk about the issue at hand really and stop trying to play boundary setter the issue is whats agesnt the law and what isnt if its agesnt the law for 1million then its agegsnt the law for 1$ id your allowed to post in my opinion after having to read far to much of this in my part time job are as follows

Name : is borderline
(address : is a defo no no
phone number : is a defo no no
id : is a slam dunk fine of upto 4m or 3% depending on witch is greater )
all of those are fine-able

poker id defo post-able

Since when has a US website been subject to UK laws?

Since it deliberately serves EU customers. The impact of this new law is such that many US websites are now blocked from the EU because those companies don't want to comply. Seems fair enough.

Since EU GDPR, every company who process data from EU citizens need be GDPR compliant.
I agree it very new thing for US websites to need comply with EU regulations and i am not aware of any time it was case before now.

For example when EU citizen visits LA times or Chicago tribune website they see message "Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries." so they don't need be GDPR compliant.

Legality have been beaten to death already, i have already posted GDPR recital what i think most address situation -here.
Most people agree it against EU law while 2+2 have lawyers who say they are not responsible for anything.
Because it likely being against EU law more action can be taken against "illegal content" after 2+2 decision to whatever information to keep or not on forum about EU citizens.

If it on random staker websites, it will be staker personal decision to post this information not teamwork with 2+2 (2+2 right now is serving as hosting company for sensitive information) and if he want break EU law he will do it anyway. Right now 2+2 working together with stakers to keep this information being public, if 2+2 decide to not allow this sensitive information and not link to website/different platform where sensitive information is hosted, 2+2 effectively is no more 3rd party involved and stakers can do whatever they want to do, i would think it is not this thread topic - we are specifically talking about 2+2 involvement to make this information public not stakers personal choices how they try get repaid as we as community/individuals might never have knowledge about this website what staker have created but have full knowledge about negative feedback thread and information being posted there..
(I am making examples of websites only because it seem most common alternative and will likely spike in popularity if 2+2 don't allow sensitive information anymore, i am not saying it acceptable or not agaist law, but it will be staker personal choice to break law/make immoral choices not team work with 2+2 like it is now).

If 2+2 want do special circumstances about lasvegas regs, i don't care as US data protection laws is from stone age and it don't effect anyone in EU anyway.

your speaking to much and not saying enough imho can you stop clogging up the tread as if you work for the bbc aka (repeat repeat) ty

Is there an English speaker here who understands what krabis is trying to communicate, and would be willing to write it up in a single concise, clear post? And krabis, could you then back off a bit and allow a conversation to emerge? We're all feeling a bit fire-hosed here, and we're gulping for air.

If not, we might as well close this thread. What would be the point of leaving it open?

Thanks for constructive criticism. I am good to leave thread alone for while, as i feel i have been going bit in circles with my posts over same arguments lately anyway, and allow emerge new arguments what have not been posted yet.

But please refer to this bobo post here about him hoping to have more discussion of the pros and cons of allowing this material to be published and legality not needing be central issue.

Legality of posts have been beaten to death, revived and beaten to death again already. I am not trying to set discussion topic and anyone can talk about whatever they want to talk about, but there is already 2-3 pages of posts about legality of posting this sensitive information and it seem not moving discussion anywhere.

It's not about the precise topics. The problem is the way you communicate.

You write a book whenever a paragraph is needed, each book is filled with incoherent semi-English, and you do it again and again and again. We just can't handle the volume of tangled spaghetti.

It's a great topic for a discussion, but you're preventing any discussion from happening.