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Old 03-30-2016, 06:06 PM   #3601
ThePrezence
 
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Name: Viet
Skype: J Tran (novemberplo)
Email: novemberplo@hotmail.com
Phone Number:841698303 / +12899218299
2+2 screen name: Don't have one
Poker Stars screen name: Tran86
Games played and staked for (and stakes): PLO50 zoom.

Viet played for us for a whole 0 days. Once we sent him the initial money of $600, we never heard from him again.

He has not replied to any of our emails or skype messages. It's probably just a big misunderstanding ... mhm

DO NOT STAKE!

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Old 03-31-2016, 07:31 AM   #3602
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Originally Posted by demetri1978 View Post
Ian Brion (also known as Adrian Brion)

SCAMMER/SCUM BAG/THIEF/CHEAT



He has now gone missing for over two months. I have asked him daily for the money to be sent back that is in his account and have asked for audits. Yet he ignores me (a few players that know him told me that he has been reading my messages).



This is not the only problems I have had with Ian. He was very hard to work with to say the least, the coaches all agreed with me. Lazy, refused to listen the list goes on

I say CHEAT/SCAMMER for more than one reason. He was asking for loans/pre chops at one point, claimed he needed it for living/family etc. I later found out that he was using my money to play live events on his own

So I got angry and put a stop to this. I said he has to play xxxx amount of games per month to get pre/chops loans. He took advantage of my good nature and got someone else to play on his account. Someone who could barley play poker ....



This was his friend playing on his account, calling a shove with T8o for 30+ BB (I can post loads more hands if need be)

This was burning my money for many reasons. Ian was getting paid by me whilst his friends where playing so badly on his account. This is a pretty serious scummy scam Ian has pulled here

This is someone confirming it was not Ian playing in his account ....



Some more info on Ian

Full name:Ian Brion (aka Adrian Brion)

Pokerstars user name:ianbrion (phillipines)

Email: email:bmpap_pr@yahoo.com

Address:12-b gladiola st, roxas district quezon city 1101 phillippines

His facbook: https://www.facebook.com/ian.brion?pnref=friends.search

and https://www.facebook.com/adrian.brion.1?fref=ts

His twitter: https://twitter.com/tnx4dchipslol

I.P address: 112.198.82.31

He is a sponsored pro for this casino/site: https://www.facebook.com/pokerkingclubmanila?pnref=lhc

(I am in contact with them)

P5s:http://www.pocketfives.com/profiles/ianbrion/

2+2: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/members/203984/

Hendon mob:http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=254172

Overall Ian had a ton of support and help from me. At one point he said I was like his big brother, with the amount of support and help I gave him

Yet he took advantage of it all and cheated and scammed me

If you have time to follow Ian via social media you will see he is a man of the bible and quotes it a lot. Yet he is a man that steals/scams and cheats

I found that very interesting indeed!

I am in the process of making a website on Ian, I will post it here once it is finished

Ian owes over $20,000, I will consider taking down the website etc once he has paid it all back or is at least is making a payment plan and sticking to it

If anyone can give me any information on Ian which helps recovers the funds he owes me I will be giving you 25% of what you recover for me!

As of now Ian is now playing on another stake, playing live poker. Which is again breaking more rules as he is in tons of make up with me and has a stake with me (I have also been told that he is playing back online to, on another account of course)

Hopefully his current backers read this asap and I save them some money and time

Last but not least and I find this shocking he is a mod on this site....

http://pokermanila.com/index.php?top...4965#msg144965

Of course I will be contacting them and passing this on to

If need be I will post more screen shots/proof of how Ian scammed/cheated and was overall a terrible person to deal with.
I am posting here and every where else I posted in reply to Ian's lies today.

I know he has not posted on 2+2 yet, but he made a update on his FB, claiming he has not stole.

Not once in this update did he mention the fact that he got someone to play on his account to make the correct volume I asked for. Now that is scummy/cheating thing to do. I PROVED this and yet he has not replied to it!

Now what he did say was he never stole on pokerstars, for those of you that read it you may have noticed he kept going on about this. Not ONCE did he mention he was staked and had funds on 888.

This is where he stole the money and refuses to send a audit. Don't you all find it strange that he would write out a massive post and mention pokerstars over 10 times, but not mention that he had a stake on 888?!

As I said the reason for this is because he stole on 888

here is me telling him i am sending him the contract on 888 (30th march 2015)....



this is us setting up 888 (30th march 2015)....



This is the last audit ian has sent, as you can see it is dated 3rd Jan 2016



This is a blow up of the cashier screen shot with $757 in the account (3rd jan 2016) ....




Now below you can see the last time Ian played on 888 poker (9/28/15)....





So as you can see from the above the last audit shows $757 in the account on Jan 3rd, he has not played on the account since Sept 28th 2015. So that money should still be in the account.

Now up to present date

The below screen shots shows me asking him to send audits for 888. You can see that I quote the first message I sent him when I asked for audits on 20th Jan 2016. Now you can see me getting angry because I have been asking for nearly for 2 months for the money to be sent back and for audits.

I believe he was ignoring me for the obvious reason because something is wrong and he has stole the money. The below screen shot shows this I have left these messages every week/day at one point



So as you can all see more lies from Ian.

Take note again he did not mention once about how when I caught him and proved here that he had people playing on his account whilst he he would play live. So I would pay him a wage when he meets the volume I asked for

This is the cheating/scummy part i refer to

Also take note even though I proved we have a stake on 888, i proved i have been asking daily for audits/money to be sent back he has just ignored me and did not refer to it once in his statement today. Why is this?

The only negative thing Ian said about me was I would not let him play live. This is untrue, the problem i had with him playing live was when I would pay him money to play online he would just go and play live

Of course I had a massive problem with this. Also to make it even worst he would get friends to play on his account, of course again I would have a problem with this.

So of course I am very angry about all of this and today to see more lies from him has made me even more angry. I have written statements that I can post here from Ian saying I have been really good to him and treated him like a big brother. So when he does all the above to me it angers me to say the least

I am happy for any well known member of the poker community to go over ALL my skype chats with Ian, you will see the proof I posted here plus more.

The proof shows that he cheated and scammed me and then in the end he stole. If Ian wants to prove me wrong then he should let these well know members of community look at his 888 audits with me and them

But he won't, as you all saw in this statement he failed to even mention 888, we all know why this is

So I have proved my case AGAIN, Ian is still and cheat/scammer/thief. Hopefully you will all agree

Thank you for your time
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Old 04-01-2016, 01:27 PM   #3603
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
Originally Posted by demetri1978 View Post
Sorry to take up so much space with this one, my last post on this I promise (any more and I will ask for a thread to be made on it)

Some might call this a grey area now, the accused has finally come forward. Saying he will do the audit I asked for and send the money back

it only took NINE weeks, yes 9 weeks of messages every day and me going public. I will take a guess that me going public did the trick, so i don't regret that at all!

So if the audit is ok and he sends back the money maybe there is a case to take thief out of the title. Either way he is still a scammer and a cheat (fyi i still have not got the audit or the money yet)

After the stunt he has pulled by getting his friend to play on his account and then at at later date going missing and IGNORING my messages for over 9 weeks I have no time and trust for him any more. As per contract rules if you break the contract and I have to stop the stake due to this the make up will be owed in full

This was when I found out someone was playing on his account....



I think I acted fairly

This is Ian saying his account was hacked by someone called Alfonso Baja



So I find out later that Alfonso is a close friend of his and Ian actually told him to play on the account. Here is part of a FB conversation confirming that ....(not to mention everyone that knows Ian knows Alfonso is his friend)

At one point he told me Alfonso is a mad man etc etc, more lies



So this was all a really big problem for many reasons. Ian would beg me a lot of prechops/loans. He would lie to me and say it was for his family, at a later date I would find out he was playing live poker with it

Now here is the really bad bit, the day I caught him doing the above he was playing live poker with money that I had pre chopped/lent him. The only reason I loaned him money was if he met a certain volume requirement per month, the way he got round this was getting his friend who can barley play poker to play on his account.

So this was hurting me in many ways, at the time Ian was being lazy on and of the tables and was not making any money, yet I would give him a loan. If someone is not making money and you are loaning them money it really costs you!

The next problem is his friend was playing on his account and burning my money, I have tons of screen shots with so many bad plays.I posted one of the hands on the scammer website....(calling all in with T8o for more than 30bb+)

http://ianadrianbrionisathief.com/

So of course with all my players I try and help them out when they are in need, as I said before Ian made a statement on 2+2 once saying I treated him so well, like a big brother. But he was really taking advantage of my good nature

Last year I had the same issues again, all of a sudden his play was ok then it went really bad. Then he would beg for loans and promise to play xxxx amount of games and then go missing again. Please take note I was not making any money from Ian, I helped him loads with support etc but to no avail

his stats/volume for last year ....



So it is pretty clear to see even of he does send my money back and the audit is fine,going missing with my money and ignoring me messages for 9 weeks is pretty damn wrong

Also him getting friends to play on his account so I give him loans and then he takes them loans and plays live poker and stops playing for me is pretty wrong to, to say the least

But I guess there will be a debate here if the thief in the title should get dropped, but there is no doubt this guy is a liar and a cheat and a scammer

No way can I trust him from here onwards to recover the make up, how can I after all he has done

Make up is over $20,000 and as per contract rules that should be owed in full now as he broke the stakes rules

Btw the way I am really making a meal of this because Ian has some how got him self sponsorship in his home country and he is a mod on this site ....

http://pokermanila.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1884

Since posting this thread on that site his mod powers have been taken away. But should he still be sponsored by a well known company after doing all of this? I don't think so. For there own benefit and for mine.

If he refuses to pay back the make up back that he owes (via loans/pre chops and cheating and scamming me) no way should he be able to carry on playing backed/sponsored by someone else.

Why would you want your company to be linked to this guy now anyway? Can you really trust him after seeing all that he has done?
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Old 04-01-2016, 03:30 PM   #3604
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
Originally Posted by demetri1978 View Post
But I guess there will be a debate here if the thief in the title should get dropped, but there is no doubt this guy is a liar and a cheat and a scammer

No way can I trust him from here onwards to recover the make up, how can I after all he has done

Make up is over $20,000 and as per contract rules that should be owed in full now as he broke the stakes rules
he is a thief imo demetri , if all that is true.

He was constantly lying to you and taking advantage, then spinning more and more lies to keep it going as long as possible.

I hope you get as much back as you can.
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:29 PM   #3605
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
Originally Posted by 180grinder View Post
i just read this and it seems to me that you dropped him and its make up owed from you dropping him yet you made a website calling this guy a thief

take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
"thieves stole her bicycle"
move somewhere quietly or surreptitiously.
"he stole down to the kitchen"
Defamation of character occurs when someone makes a false statement about you that causes you some type of harm. The statement must be published (meaning some third party must have heard it), false, and it must result in harm, usually to the reputation.

you really need to becareful guys just saying
sure post in here saying this person broke rules and owes makeup but you really should'nt make a thief site if they didnt steal but you dropped them if this was two uk ppl you could get sue'd even maybe
Would love to see someone takes these ****'s to court, they act as if make up is money borrowed. It's an investment and when ye drop a horse a loss should come with that!

Another thing I here pocarr and demitri are doing is lending horse's money(this so called "wage") and then double the loan gets added to the horse's make up. This is outright disgraceful behaviour imo
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:49 PM   #3606
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustBetter89 View Post
Another thing I here pocarr and demitri are doing is lending horse's money(this so called "wage") and then double the loan gets added to the horse's make up. This is outright disgraceful behaviour imo
if you loan a horse money, you are essentially giving them an advance on winnings. most deals are 50/50 so for every $1 profit a horse only gets 50c, meaning if you give them $1k loan (advance on winnings) the actual winnings they would have to win to make that $1k from profits is $2k and thus why the loan (advance on winnings) is doubled on the makeup. The horse has to win $2k to earn his $1k or pay back his $1k

Unless i have been missing something for years, this is pretty standard in backing when dealing with loans? I might be wrong
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Old 04-01-2016, 09:53 PM   #3607
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Would love to see someone takes these ****'s to court, they act as if make up is money borrowed. It's an investment and when ye drop a horse a loss should come with that!

Another thing I here pocarr and demitri are doing is lending horse's money(this so called "wage") and then double the loan gets added to the horse's make up. This is outright disgraceful behaviour imo
Don't mention my name in this nonsense, I have never done that

You obviously have no clue how make up works.

If a horse chops/makes $1,000 it is chopped 600 them 400 me (on a 60/40 deal, it would be 500 them 500 me on a 50/50 deal)

if they are in make up and do a PRE chop, it is the same thing/effect. I get 400 they get 600. no different from when they chopped in 1k profit

you berk

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Old 04-02-2016, 12:21 AM   #3608
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harp221122 View Post
if you loan a horse money, you are essentially giving them an advance on winnings. most deals are 50/50 so for every $1 profit a horse only gets 50c, meaning if you give them $1k loan (advance on winnings) the actual winnings they would have to win to make that $1k from profits is $2k and thus why the loan (advance on winnings) is doubled on the makeup. The horse has to win $2k to earn his $1k or pay back his $1k

Unless i have been missing something for years, this is pretty standard in backing when dealing with loans? I might be wrong
+1
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Old 04-02-2016, 12:45 AM   #3609
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

I've got sympathy for demitri, who appears to have been the victim of an outright scam.

The Tom Friedman one I think depends on exactly how far away he was from meeting volume goals. I wouldn't consider posting on the forum or watching 'x' number of strategy videos to be a material part of the agreement. Volume is a different matter...if he's meeting 90% of his volume then I don't think it's a reason to drop, 20% would of course be another matter entirely.

The 'stole our time' thing is of course ridiculous either way. When a stake goes bad it generally means everyone has lost out on their time (usually horse hasn't made profit so is out on his time, while the backer is out on their money and a smaller amount of time for admin, coaching etc).
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:13 AM   #3610
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

I definitely see your point, the forum posting/video watching stuff are significantly less important than other parts of the contract. That said, it IS a contract that was willingly signed by the horse and he violated it. I'm not saying that makes him a thief/scammer, but it does allow the other party to end the agreement and be owed makeup, provided that too was listed in the contract.
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Old 04-02-2016, 02:28 AM   #3611
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
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I definitely see your point, the forum posting/video watching stuff are significantly less important than other parts of the contract. That said, it IS a contract that was willingly signed by the horse and he violated it. I'm not saying that makes him a thief/scammer, but it does allow the other party to end the agreement and be owed makeup, provided that too was listed in the contract.
Yeah agreed. The horse decided to sign a strict but reasonable contract. It's not like it's a ridiculous slave contract like whoever that 180man guy was. As long as they warned the horse a time or two to start meeting the quotas then it seems a reasonable reason to drop. Horses need to do a better job of reading what they are agreeing to when entering a stake.
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Old 04-02-2016, 08:33 AM   #3612
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Originally Posted by acbarone View Post
I definitely see your point, the forum posting/video watching stuff are significantly less important than other parts of the contract. That said, it IS a contract that was willingly signed by the horse and he violated it. I'm not saying that makes him a thief/scammer, but it does allow the other party to end the agreement and be owed makeup, provided that too was listed in the contract.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTyman9 View Post
Yeah agreed. The horse decided to sign a strict but reasonable contract. It's not like it's a ridiculous slave contract like whoever that 180man guy was. As long as they warned the horse a time or two to start meeting the quotas then it seems a reasonable reason to drop. Horses need to do a better job of reading what they are agreeing to when entering a stake.
The problem is once you start getting into enforcing really tiny rules like that, which aren't material to the main point of the contract (i.e. 'I give you money, and you play poker for me with that money, and we split profits'), the potential for dickery is endless.

From the stakers side, there's the potential to end stakes over very minor transgressions, and it's kind of a freeroll in the sense that they'd happily end it in MU and demand repayment, but if horse had shipped a big score during the time he was breaking the rules, they'd have been shouting from the rooftops if they didn't get their 50% cut.

And it's not only horses that break rules. What if it's in a contract that a staker will reload a horse within 24 hours, but he ends up taking 28 hours? Could the horse, at 1 minute past the 24 hour point, declare himself free of the stake and free of any MU obligation? What if in the contract it says the horse gets 1 hour of coaching a week, but the coach that week never showed up. What if this happened two weeks in a row? Can he happily head for the exit door with no questions asked? I'd say no - but then again I'd consider both things to be equally as minor as something like not writing enough forum posts for the month, or not watching some specified strategy video.

I mean by the strict letter of the contract, they can drop I suppose, but it's probably not their most +EV play (since no horse on the planet that is dropped for not watching videos is ever going to repay a dime), and if they get angleshot later down the line by a horse over some technicality in the contract then there can be no complaints. I just think it's healthier for everyone to not nitpick over tiny details in contracts so long as the main terms are being fulfilled (which are: staker sends money to play poker on a timely basis, horse plays the specified games and volume with that money, the profits are split according to agreement)
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Old 04-02-2016, 08:56 AM   #3613
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Backers can drop horses whenever they want, for whatever reason they feel like giving.

It's perfectly reasonable for a backer to demand repayment of makeup when a horse willfully breaks the contract by playing unauthorised games, refusing to use coaching material, failing to meet volume targets etc. as otherwise the backer is exposed to an obvious angleshooting opportunity when a player gets deep in MU and deliberately gets dropped. It's fair that Pocarr and other staking groups should take reasonable steps to enforce their contracts and demand that players in breach should repay makeup.

All that said, nobody's going to convince me that it's reasonable to blackmail a player who hasn't actually stolen anything into repaying makeup by threatening to put up a "xxxxisathief" site if they don't comply.
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:51 AM   #3614
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Backers can drop horses whenever they want, for whatever reason they feel like giving.
Of course, but they can't drop for 'any reason' and then expect to be repaid.

Quote:
It's perfectly reasonable for a backer to demand repayment of makeup when a horse willfully breaks the contract by playing unauthorised games, refusing to use coaching material, failing to meet volume targets etc. as otherwise the backer is exposed to an obvious angleshooting opportunity when a player gets deep in MU and deliberately gets dropped. It's fair that Pocarr and other staking groups should take reasonable steps to enforce their contracts and demand that players in breach should repay makeup.
The first one (unauthorised games) for sure, failing to meet volume targets...maybe, though it depends how severe (i.e. running 10% below required volume for a month is not a valid reason IMO). Refusing to use coaching material I would say only very rarely qualifies for repayment of makeup, since picking a losing horse is a risk the backer takes, plus there's the issue that some 'coaching material' out there sucks donkey balls.

I just don't see all 'breaches' of contract as the same. There's 'material' breaches and 'immaterial' breaches - stuff like forum posts, watching videos, a couple of hours delay when it comes to reloads, the backer missing a coaching session etc are all in the realm of insignificant breaches, IMO. If it can be judged that a horse should have to repay 100% because he doesn't watch some videos and post on a forum, what about if some horse didn't get enough coaching sessions that month as per his contract, but ships a big MTT then says 'nah, I'm not giving you guys anything as you didn't fulfill the coaching part of the contract'. Everyone would be calling that guy scum. But if the backer can make small mistakes and still be entitled to a cut of the winnings (as I think is right) then the same must apply to the horse - he must be allowed to make small mistakes and not have to pay back all his makeup, otherwise the situation is grossly unbalanced.
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Old 04-02-2016, 04:37 PM   #3615
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
The problem is once you start getting into enforcing really tiny rules like that, which aren't material to the main point of the contract (i.e. 'I give you money, and you play poker for me with that money, and we split profits'), the potential for dickery is endless.
Who gets to decide which rules are "really tiny" and which are "material?" Both parties agreed to all the rules, allowing one of them to not follow them and claim it's immaterial is going to lead to much more 'dickery' IMO.

Remember, the parties do not start out on equal footing. The backer assumes pretty much 100% of the risk in regards to

1) Will the horse even play (or will he steal the bankroll)?
2) Will he play within the specifed limits?
3) Will he listen to/attend coaching (when applicable)?
4) Will he be profitable?
5) If profitable, will he pay me my fair share?

Not to mention a litany of other worries, including any sort of deceptive behavior, using funds for non poker means, etc. Because the backer assumes so much risk, it's normal for him to set somewhat rigid rules/structure to avoid being angled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
From the stakers side, there's the potential to end stakes over very minor transgressions, and it's kind of a freeroll in the sense that they'd happily end it in MU and demand repayment, but if horse had shipped a big score during the time he was breaking the rules, they'd have been shouting from the rooftops if they didn't get their 50% cut.
Take a look at this thread; how many times has a horse came in here and made a compelling argument about being screwed by his backer? Compare that with the number of times a backer has been angled/etc and it's not even close. I'm not saying that there aren't shady backers out there, but if the standard agreement is a freeroll for one side it isn't the backer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
I just think it's healthier for everyone to not nitpick over tiny details in contracts so long as the main terms are being fulfilled (which are: staker sends money to play poker on a timely basis, horse plays the specified games and volume with that money, the profits are split according to agreement)
I don't disagree with this in theory, but I see no harm in deciding cases individually rather than relying on a generic blanket statement. In poker terms, if someone asked "How do you play this hand" the answer is usually "it depends" and the same can be applied for backer/horse conflicts IMO.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:56 AM   #3616
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

George Lee / Georgiy Li
Pokerstars (and most other sites): mad1lee
2+2: mad1lee

Cliffs: George walked out on 85k in MTT makeup to go play cash games.


We staked George since August 2013. He won an okay amount of money in the early days, and then in the last 12 months went deeper and deeper into makeup. We were happy to continue because we believed in his ability and had a very strong relationship with him. A player going into deep makeup is never a good situation, but with George we weren't as concerned because of his work ethic, history and because he seemed very honest.

While George was deep in makeup, we paid him to do individual and group coaching sessions in the stable when work was available. We also did the usual things like putting in a framework to allow him to make cashouts when he cleared parts of his makeup, gave some small life loans, plus things like buying him a monitor and desk, and printing and mailing materials we had made to Russia.

George came to us recently while in 85k of MU and said that he had gotten an offer from his friend, Ch33s3z0r (high-stakes Russian reg), to play cash games and receive coaching, and that he was going to walk out on his makeup to do so. The only thing George offered in return was to play out a token number of tournaments (3-5k was proposed by him) on the deal before leaving regardless of what the makeup amount was after this number of tournaments. This was not a reasonable starting point for discussions and we refused to engage on it.

Whilst we didn't want to negotiate that, we did make it clear that we were happy to do anything to make it comfortable for him to continue to play under the deal, e.g. by offering increased rakeback / life loans / a 'makeup aside' arrangement whereby he could start making money straight away and a % would go to paying off makeup. We were willing to explore any combination of these to get an outcome that worked for both of us. George had no interest in discussing any of these items, repeatedly stating 'that is not going to work for me'.

We are not sure if Ch33s3z0r realises the full detail of George's situation and the implications of his own actions, i.e. that he is essentially enabling a scam to take place. We have asked George to put us in contact with his friend, but he has apparently refused to let George share his contact details with us.

George sent the remaining bankroll back and has admitted that what he has done is very scummy. Needless to say, this sucks, it's a lot of money and we are very shocked that it has come to this with someone we considered a friend for a long time.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:17 AM   #3617
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Pocarr looked pretty bad until rtinion posted the list of way more tournies played out of stake limits.. if he was supposed to play up to 44s and played one specific 55 multiple times and clearly misunderstood the situation, split the profit of the 55 when won etc their response would have been way overreacting and whilst technically their "right" basically absurd. despite whatever reasoning they gave, common sense obviously overpowers it... obviously it makes sense to have some rules but just like in non poker situations judgement should be used where appropriate. in fact I don't even think they have the right at some extent, there's too much incentive for the backers to find some nitty detail and demand full make up to be repaid which is obviously incredibly unfair ev wise in many scenarios. see grinder4all 3620# post

also must be the 10th person to say the stole our time thing is absolute bs, powertripping and abuse of positioning. seriously who had that great idea?

but given new evidence seems to suggest he played many tourneys way out (incl 215$ BI etc) he's in the wrong. although im pretty sure they didn't know that until they dug it up.. meh

(talking about two different cases in this post)

https://tomsfreimanisisathief.wordpress.com

edit: just saw this site.. wtf?? This is ridiculous.. just because you make the agreement that you can do this doesn't make it right or OK, blackmailing ppl into sending you money by hugely exaggerating is a massive overreaction. what he did (if I understood correctly) should not warrant his name coming up with being a thief on Google, it warrants warnings, a demanding of repayment and a warning in this thread/to the poker world not outside of the poker world.

it even has his address and personal details lol, pretty sure he can sue you for this (won't happen in practice but just saying).. you guys also posted many pics of him with ppl (that are completely not related to this issue) who you didnt blur out their faces etc...???!

all the terms
didn't watch enough training videos
didn't post forums enough
didn't play enough games

show the bad form/laziness of a horse who shouldn't be staked but not someone who is scumbag/thief (alone). he could do all of things (especially the first two) really easily and it be a complete waste of time/energy for both (especially letting the videos run without actually watching) and lie to you guys but he didn't..

I mean whatever wouldn't necessarily say I would avoid dealing with Pocarr since no one should plan to breach such terms obviously but it's pretty poor business to be so unreasonably harsh and probably a poor ev decision too. people are human, if you try hard you can find breaches from almost everyone sometimes (mostly unintentional, small ones like oops he posted 4 instead of 5 times, or oops he didn't watch enough videos this week, oops he had something come up so missed 1 week out of 30 in volume etc).
I assume you probably tried discussing with him (but details aren't clear on the site), but still.

Last edited by OMGClayDol; 04-03-2016 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:15 AM   #3618
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Completely agree with OMGClayDol. I think a thief site with these exact contract violations are way out of line. Calling someone a thief public on internet for stealing time!! and not watch enough vids!!, make enough posts!!, play enough (slightly better but still not even close to what a thief is), cmon...

Last edited by stevesmobs64; 04-03-2016 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 04-03-2016, 03:53 PM   #3619
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Originally Posted by gchaps1988 View Post
hypnotic242 - PokerStars (mhusanov@list.ru) - Muzaffar Husanov

Claimed he was banned from stars on 11/15 when he was 10k MU, with regular messages explaining why cant play. Then just heard nothing and he hasn't played on stars since. Wonder if he has a new username. please report to gary.richard.chappell (skype) if noticed.
turns out hypnotic242 had a heart attack so underwent heart surgery. this explains him not getting in touch with any of my messages and not playing poker. he has been in touch and paid off his MU and is looking for a new staker. he was a very hard worker and reliable guy when i staked him.
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Old 04-03-2016, 11:35 PM   #3620
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Originally Posted by acbarone View Post
Who gets to decide which rules are "really tiny" and which are "material?"
The vast majority would be able to be sorted out through simple common sense (i.e: horse cashing out the bank roll to spend on hookers and blow = major, horse playing 10 games volume out of a required 2000 in a month = major, horse not updating his rail one time within 24 hours after busting out of his sunday schedule MTT's = minor).

For anything else, well I guess they'd have to go to arbitration.
Quote:
Both parties agreed to all the rules, allowing one of them to not follow them and claim it's immaterial is going to lead to much more 'dickery' IMO.
For sure, both parties agreed, and it still reflects badly on the party that is not following the rules, even if they are minor parts of the contract. However, just because minor parts of the contract are breached does not cancel the contract as a whole.

This is true outside of poker as well. If you have an employee contracted to work 9am-5pm, but they show up once at 9:02am, that doesn't warrant a sacking. It wouldn't even warrant a sacking if they did it regularly.

I'm not saying only one party can decide not to follow the rules, I'd extend the same benefit to the backer. If a backer is supposed to reload his horses within 24 hours, but for whatever reason he takes a few hours longer (or even a day longer), I don't think the horses can just walk out over it and say they were 'dropped'.
Quote:
Remember, the parties do not start out on equal footing. The backer assumes pretty much 100% of the risk in regards to

1) Will the horse even play (or will he steal the bankroll)?
2) Will he play within the specifed limits?
3) Will he listen to/attend coaching (when applicable)?
4) Will he be profitable?
5) If profitable, will he pay me my fair share?

Not to mention a litany of other worries, including any sort of deceptive behavior, using funds for non poker means, etc. Because the backer assumes so much risk, it's normal for him to set somewhat rigid rules/structure to avoid being angled.
These are just the risks of running a business though. All businesses when taking on new staff have risks (what if they can't do the job and require costly training to improve? What if they will get sick and need time off while we're still paying them?). It doesn't justify angling their employees for stuff like taking a 17 minute break when they're only entitled to 15 minutes.
Quote:
I don't disagree with this in theory, but I see no harm in deciding cases individually rather than relying on a generic blanket statement. In poker terms, if someone asked "How do you play this hand" the answer is usually "it depends" and the same can be applied for backer/horse conflicts IMO.
Yes I agree here. The individual facts of the case are very important. Though I'm struggling to see a scenario where making forum posts and watching videos will ever be cause to be repaid 100% (and thus grant the staker a complete freeroll).

Maybe one of the problems is that all too often these seem to be 'all or nothing' type arguments made from the backer and horse. The horse, having breached some minor rules, doesn't want to pay anything (and thus freerolling his backer), but the backer believes he's entitled to 100% (thus freerolling the horse).

I know this isn't the way it's currently done in the industry, but I think the fairest way to determine MU owed would be on a sliding scale (i.e. an outright scam or theft gets 100% returned, some minor thing that the backer is probably trying to angle over gets 10-20% returned, stuff in the middle gets 40-70% returned depending on severity). Too often both parties sit at dramatically opposite ends of the spectrum, with one demanding 100% (a unreasonable pipe dream considering if the guy was in a position to pay 100%, why the hell would he get staked anyway) and the other saying he won't pay a cent (rather scummy, and unreasonable too).
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:58 AM   #3621
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
However, just because minor parts of the contract are breached does not cancel the contract as a whole.
I think we're mostly in agreement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
This is true outside of poker as well. If you have an employee contracted to work 9am-5pm, but they show up once at 9:02am, that doesn't warrant a sacking. It wouldn't even warrant a sacking if they did it regularly.
It could tho, if it's something you've told them repeatedly and they refuse to adhere to the rules. A similar analogy would be if a horse plays just a bit outside the roll. I've only been in business for a few months and I've had several guys do it, some on purpose and some on accident. At what point am I allowed to drop the guy who does it in purpose? On accident, assuming it continues to keep happening?
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Old 04-04-2016, 01:54 AM   #3622
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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Originally Posted by acbarone View Post
I think we're mostly in agreement.



It could tho, if it's something you've told them repeatedly and they refuse to adhere to the rules. A similar analogy would be if a horse plays just a bit outside the roll. I've only been in business for a few months and I've had several guys do it, some on purpose and some on accident. At what point am I allowed to drop the guy who does it in purpose? On accident, assuming it continues to keep happening?
Heh, well it's a bit difficult to give hard and fast concrete rules with this stuff as I'm sure you know.

It's really going to depend on the facts of individual case. Let's say you have a horse contracted to play $20 ABI or less, send him a roll that corresponds to those buyin levels, and then the first week of the stake he goes and plays the Sunday Million. I'd say that was grounds for termination (and full repayment) right away, since that one buyin would represent a significant part of the roll, and his makeup would be relatively low (i.e. a few hundred dollars). Having to pay back a few hundred bucks for making such a huge error (relative to the stakes he was allowed to play) seems fair.

Taking another example, let's say you've got a horse who through bad luck or whatever, ends up in $50k makeup. He's contracted to play up to $255 ABI, which he sticks to. However, every week, he goes and plays a couple of orbits of 2nl cash even though it's a tournament stake. In this scenario I'd say there's no real limit to how many times he can do that before having to repay $50k since while it might be annoying to the backer it's not having a material effect on the stake (as the losses would literally be measured in pocket change) and having to repay 50 grand because you made a bad decision with 2 bucks is never going to be a proportional punishment.

I know that's not really a satisfactory answer since it all depends on the backer and horses individual view of what is 'reasonable'. The most reasonable thing of all of course is simply for the horse to reg the damned games he's supposed to and nothing else.

BTW if you've been having a few problems with horses playing outside the roll, maybe you could require them to set buyin restrictions on their account prior to joining your group? Just set the max buyin to whatever the maximum stake tournament is they are allowed to play, and put cash games to 'DO NOT PLAY' (I'm assuming you're staking tournaments/SNG's and not cash games?). You could verify they've done this via teamviewer or skype.

It doesn't stop them reversing the buyin restrictions after you've sent them the money, but it does prevent them saying 'oh, my bad, it was an accident'.
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:39 AM   #3623
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

Quote:
Originally Posted by grinder4all View Post
Heh, well it's a bit difficult to give hard and fast concrete rules with this stuff as I'm sure you know.

It's really going to depend on the facts of individual case. Let's say you have a horse contracted to play $20 ABI or less, send him a roll that corresponds to those buyin levels, and then the first week of the stake he goes and plays the Sunday Million. I'd say that was grounds for termination (and full repayment) right away, since that one buyin would represent a significant part of the roll, and his makeup would be relatively low (i.e. a few hundred dollars). Having to pay back a few hundred bucks for making such a huge error (relative to the stakes he was allowed to play) seems fair.

Taking another example, let's say you've got a horse who through bad luck or whatever, ends up in $50k makeup. He's contracted to play up to $255 ABI, which he sticks to. However, every week, he goes and plays a couple of orbits of 2nl cash even though it's a tournament stake. In this scenario I'd say there's no real limit to how many times he can do that before having to repay $50k since while it might be annoying to the backer it's not having a material effect on the stake (as the losses would literally be measured in pocket change) and having to repay 50 grand because you made a bad decision with 2 bucks is never going to be a proportional punishment.

I know that's not really a satisfactory answer since it all depends on the backer and horses individual view of what is 'reasonable'. The most reasonable thing of all of course is simply for the horse to reg the damned games he's supposed to and nothing else.

BTW if you've been having a few problems with horses playing outside the roll, maybe you could require them to set buyin restrictions on their account prior to joining your group? Just set the max buyin to whatever the maximum stake tournament is they are allowed to play, and put cash games to 'DO NOT PLAY' (I'm assuming you're staking tournaments/SNG's and not cash games?). You could verify they've done this via teamviewer or skype.

It doesn't stop them reversing the buyin restrictions after you've sent them the money, but it does prevent them saying 'oh, my bad, it was an accident'.
idk, i def get where you are coming from but if a horse has repeatedly broken small rules then i think it becomes fair for the backer to drop them. Just like I think it'd be fair if a backer was repeatedly a few days late on reloading their player for no good reason then the player should likely be allowed to search out a different backer. If these small things happen continually on either end then it shows a disrespect of their business relationship and if someone is stupid enough to make the same mistake over and over after being told not to then I don't see how it matters that the monetary amt doesn't fit the actual severity of the individual crime. If you were tilting away a few dollars at cash games and your backer told you to stop and you continued to do it over and over and over again you'd have to be stupid/incredibly disrespectful. Unfortunately it's always going to be subjective where the line is of how many warnings it is reasonable to give someone, so I'm not sure what the best solution is. But I don't agree that the horse or the backer should just be allowed to not follow less important rules repeatedly because it doesn't have an immediate large financial impact on the stake.

It also seems reasonable that they expect horses to be on top of watching vids and posting in their forums in order to improve. The horse knows they are agreeing to this going into it, so I don't think it's shady to drop them for this as long as they've been given a couple warnings that they need to start hitting their benchmarks.
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Old 04-04-2016, 03:47 AM   #3624
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

didn't read all the posts but of course dropping for repeated "small" offenses is one thing but posting this thief site with photos of them, photos of their friends/family, address etc is absurd, nothing else to say
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Old 04-04-2016, 04:10 PM   #3625
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Re: **NEGATIVE Feedback Thread (for Marketplace and all Subforums)**

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didn't read all the posts but of course dropping for repeated "small" offenses is one thing but posting this thief site with photos of them, photos of their friends/family, address etc is absurd, nothing else to say
yeah agree with this for sure
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