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Old 04-01-2019, 07:10 PM   #1
3G12K45
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Lightbulb Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

Hello everyone,

have a situation here and need a others point of view, or shall I ask how would you react or what would you do in same situation ?


2 years ago on spin and go school started its own activity. They invited even those who had zero experience in spin n go`s or in poker in general. I had some experience but i was loosing player always i mean i played what i liked pretty much from mtt to cash and had no idea how to earn from poker, anyway. Study buddie suggested me this school and we both joined it.

The beggining was from 1$ and it was clear rules, how many games you have to play and what ev you have to reach in every limit to achieve next step(higher limit). Every hand was sent via dropbox and coaches always was seeing results and making lessons via skype and ye bassicaly player was under full control of teachers.

But i studied hard and after one year of studies and full time grind I beat up 60$ limit in pokerstars.eu according to their rules (5k sample 50ch ev if I remember it well) might be that ch ev was required different but I don't have a picture of graph right now so I don't remember it now, but sample size was 5k. I did it ! Woho ! But it think I had downswing at that time so I almost never cashed out money in 60s, anyways I jumped into 100s because according to the results I was able to play there and teachers sent me to 100s, I was happy with it, that was my goal. At that point my stake might been -7-9k around these numbers. And I was first horse to jump into 100s and did it in one year basically.

Before 100s my cooperation with teachers was cool, we had no problems and so on, we agreed well, i mean I made them some money, made some for my self everything was cool, i was listening to them and just playing and learning stuff.

Here 100s started, my ch ev was always around 35-40ch ev downswing was still there and teachers believed in me, they were saying im gonna break the ice and told me to just keep playng, stake was growing up. 2k games went on, ch ev still bad (35-40), they still saying same thing, i kept playing and in the end i managed to play 5k sample with 35ch ev before they finally said to go back to 60s, my stake at that point was now -26k, i came back to 60s, even though i crushed it before now 60s was even to hard to play, my motivation was gone, teachers did not show any support except that "we still gonna finance you and everything will be ok."


I feel like i was just left haning there and only support they could give, only finance me when im only loosing, so as i said after i came back they to 60s I was not able to play it right so they pushed me back to 30s, there I also did not show results so they pushed me back to 15s, and so on till now im in 5EUROS limits, and they did not even ask WHY , they had table with requirements what ch ev in what sample have to be and if you dont have results you go down or up, and now they expect me to grind that stake in 5eur limits, or came back somehow, do you think that is even right guys ? what you would do ?

I want to quit this thing and thay are saying that now im in dept that stake, when i ask them do they feel even a little bit responsible for my results, answer is no like its my only fault and I definately do not agree with that, i think its unfair and im ready to go court if so, would love to hear your opinions about situation guys.

P.S in the end when i was said to play 5euros and they staked me for 500 i think i spend it on food and everything because at that point i was in job search and needed that money so i violated contract by that move and they saying that they gonna go to court. Funny fact that poker in our country is not legal so how they gonna do that in first plays?

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Old 04-01-2019, 08:23 PM   #2
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

If you took their money against the contract, whether it was spent on food or drugs or strippers, if it wasn't your money to take you should be working hard at paying that back in my opinion.

As far as your results, I think it's a two way street, but that's the nature of poker and coaching relationships. And if you're not making money neither are they, so it's not like they are just profiting off of your back and treating you poorly, neither of you are winning (or both of you are winning), so your incentives are pretty well aligned.
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Old 04-02-2019, 02:30 AM   #3
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

So you're ready to take them to court, but they can't take you to court because poker isn't legal in your country? Wait, what??

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P.S in the end when i was said to play 5euros and they staked me for 500 i think i spend it on food and everything because at that point i was in job search and needed that money so i stole their money by that move and they saying that they gonna go to court.
FYP.

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Funny fact that poker in our country is not legal so how they gonna do that in first plays?
I don't see how that stops them from suing you for stealing their money.
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:30 AM   #4
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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As far as your results, I think it's a two way street, but that's the nature of poker and coaching relationships. And if you're not making money neither are they, so it's not like they are just profiting off of your back and treating you poorly, neither of you are winning (or both of you are winning), so your incentives are pretty well aligned.
The issue of agency costs couldn't be clearer, with OP in 30k makeup and playing $5 spins. He has virtually no chance of clearing that makeup, and to do so he must labour for months or years with almost no shot of making any money. Clearly OP's incentive is to ditch the contract (quit poker perhaps) and the incentive of the staking group is to have him grind the makeup back in this low variance higher edge game.

OP, sounds like you are judgement proof so I wouldn't worry too much about court. Can't get blood from a stone.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:05 AM   #5
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

For money I took I feel I I have to give them back but clearly not stake money while they do not take any responsibility for results..
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:11 AM   #6
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
So you're ready to take them to court, but they can't take you to court because poker isn't legal in your country? Wait, what??


FYP.


I don't see how that stops them from suing you for stealing their money.
I mean they threatens me with court, and if so, I`m ready to go there. Saying that because they would love to do it without any courts and make me sign new dept pappers for that stake. They did it with other player and he agreed to do everythign to not go to court, but i feel i have a point here. And if they go to court for stolen money and win those, its okay.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:15 AM   #7
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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The issue of agency costs couldn't be clearer, with OP in 30k makeup and playing $5 spins. He has virtually no chance of clearing that makeup, and to do so he must labour for months or years with almost no shot of making any money. Clearly OP's incentive is to ditch the contract (quit poker perhaps) and the incentive of the staking group is to have him grind the makeup back in this low variance higher edge game.

OP, sounds like you are judgement proof so I wouldn't worry too much about court. Can't get blood from a stone.
Yesss, even have a print screen where other players asks how i will clear that mu ? and one of the coaches says - no chance

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Old 04-02-2019, 06:23 AM   #8
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

I mean guys, you come to school to learn play and win, you learn hard for two years and do everything coaches teach you. After two years you find yourself in minus 26k and 5euro stake and coaches calmly says to grind cause you know, "you are a winning player" otherwise you are in dept.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:33 AM   #9
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

Before start i didn`t even knew that its possible to go that much to -. Contract rules was to play win and share wins as like its impossible to go to minus because we are winning school, from their side it was financing/giving lessons to play. 100s seemed like impossible same as those numbers. About that word dept first time they said only after going to that huge minus. Contract size was 50k games, i played 35k and said i can easily play 50k and thanks goodbye but they showed that that is not the case and i have to grind minus and 50k is now not important anymore. How its even possible to clear up 26k what do they even think
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Old 04-02-2019, 10:23 AM   #10
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

looks like a failed stake that ended in you scamming them at rock bottom, not sure why you are the one making this thread
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Old 04-02-2019, 12:36 PM   #11
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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looks like a failed stake that ended in you scamming them at rock bottom, not sure why you are the one making this thread
THey were in control in first place. I should have not played that much hands tournaments in 100s and if they would have done right decision stake would not be this size, I mean you don't see any of their responsibility here ?
Now it seems that I played as much as I wanted in highest limits because I just want to, no, everything was done according to them how it`s only my fault tell me ? With their strategy we made minus 26k and its my fault ? really?
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:45 PM   #12
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

The important thing is we all learned a valuable lesson about reversion to the mean.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:47 PM   #13
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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I mean you don't see any of their responsibility here ?
It seems like that's all you see.
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Old 04-02-2019, 06:53 PM   #14
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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It seems like that's all you see.
If they would took even a little bit of responsibility I would be still grinding. That's where we started to not get along. I felt discriminated when I started to go back limits and lose for sure.

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Old 04-02-2019, 10:51 PM   #15
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

well one thing thats not accurate about your post is yes of course clearing your MU @ 5$ buyin is impossible. but you have only been knocked down to '$5 buyin because you are playing like ****. so you are supposed to improve your game to get moved back up in buyins to a point you can actually realistically clear the mu.
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Old 04-03-2019, 06:13 AM   #16
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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well one thing thats not accurate about your post is yes of course clearing your MU @ 5$ buyin is impossible. but you have only been knocked down to '$5 buyin because you are playing like ****. so you are supposed to improve your game to get moved back up in buyins to a point you can actually realistically clear the mu.
You r saying like it almost was my goal to reach 5$ limits. I could not perform well when on the head was stake this size
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Old 04-04-2019, 04:24 AM   #17
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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If they would took even a little bit of responsibility I would be still grinding. That's where we started to not get along. I felt discriminated when I started to go back limits and lose for sure.
That seems unlikely, as I don't expect they'd want to continue with a thief. Oh wait, I guess you're suggesting you wouldn't have stolen if they "took even a little bit of responsibility". That could be the start of your defense - it's their fault you stole the money.

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You r saying like it almost was my goal to reach 5$ limits. I could not perform well when on the head was stake this size
No, he's not suggesting anything of the sort. There wasn't even a hint in his post of there being any intention on your part to reach $5 limits. Defensive much?

The more you post, the worse you look.
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Old 04-04-2019, 07:21 AM   #18
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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That seems unlikely, as I don't expect they'd want to continue with a thief. Oh wait, I guess you're suggesting you wouldn't have stolen if they "took even a little bit of responsibility". That could be the start of your defense - it's their fault you stole the money.


No, he's not suggesting anything of the sort. There wasn't even a hint in his post of there being any intention on your part to reach $5 limits. Defensive much?

The more you post, the worse you look.
I`m good. I`m not saying I will not give back those 300 and for stake I`m saying they can go to court as they willing to do, I see different opinions, thank you. If you r saying a thief because of stake, why im not feeling like a thief in this situation? I did my best learning strategy, putting huge volume and still loosing, after loosing being throwing down limits like i had no results before. Then saying okay, ****ty situation but i still cant grind those lowest limits till 50k (and i did some games in 5eur) games according to contract and they say no way. And at that point i cant stand that, it was never written that sums cant be this huge, if it would be a playable sum of course i would grind, now, how for me its possible to clear it up when even one of the coaches said its impossible, they invited use to play and win and share and said join if you want to live from poker not drown

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Old 04-04-2019, 07:58 AM   #19
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

For me its sad cause I did my work and climbed those limits and to end this way is never happy or respectful I truly wanted to do my contract and learn but situation went very wrong and I don't want to take full responsibility for it. That's it.
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:18 AM   #20
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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If you r saying a thief because of stake, why im not feeling like a thief in this situation?
I'm saying you're a thief because of the $500 you stole, and if you're not feeling like a thief, then obviously there's something wrong with your moral compass.

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For me its sad cause I did my work and climbed those limits and to end this way is never happy or respectful I truly wanted to do my contract and learn but situation went very wrong and I don't want to take full responsibility for it. That's it.
Again, it doesn't seem like you want to take any responsibility for it. The whole thread is you whining about how they did you wrong, and they were terrible for dropping you in limits - in your words, after the first drop in stakes: "my motivation was gone". Yeah, the problem here is definitely that they're not taking enough responsibility.
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Old 04-05-2019, 08:58 AM   #21
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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I'm saying you're a thief because of the $500 you stole, and if you're not feeling like a thief, then obviously there's something wrong with your moral compass.


Again, it doesn't seem like you want to take any responsibility for it. The whole thread is you whining about how they did you wrong, and they were terrible for dropping you in limits - in your words, after the first drop in stakes: "my motivation was gone". Yeah, the problem here is definitely that they're not taking enough responsibility.
I see with you here, reading only what you want or more important i`m not recounting story right. Ok im a thief for those 300-500, how you made it that i dont want to take any if im saying that if they would take even a little bit of it i would have still grinded.. funnnnnnny. Maybe i`m a thief just cant realize it without your help. My motivation was there, i grinded same sample sizeseven grinded in 5s but couldnt do it as good as before and they saw it and after it of course i was done. you would grind still 5s with that stake ok even in 15s, happy for you, why did they let me play there in 100s in the first place and for so long results wasnt there? let it be men im happy that you have your opinion and you participate here. And if courte says im a thief, i will pay it monthly with a calm heart dude if i have stolen that money and spent it like i dont care in a candy shop and not doing what they said to do and when they watched every move how i was doing it. But they didnt care about me now i have to care about them yes ?

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Old 04-06-2019, 12:29 AM   #22
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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how you made it that i dont want to take any
Because that's what all of your posts are about - even this one. What they did wrong, how they let you down, ignored you, don't care about you, etc., etc.

Really, from our perspective it's hard to judge what happened here. What their agreement was with you, how your chats went, etc. Perhaps they were willing to help more than you say, or more than you believe. Maybe you could have better applied what they had taught you, or maybe you needed to slow things down and wait until they had some time for you. Or maybe they were negligent. I'm just going based on what you've posted, and it sort of raises a red flag for me when I only get one side of the story, when you're going to put yourself in the very best light you can (as most people would), and it doesn't make you sound that great.
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Old 04-06-2019, 09:06 AM   #23
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

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Because that's what all of your posts are about - even this one. What they did wrong, how they let you down, ignored you, don't care about you, etc., etc.

Really, from our perspective it's hard to judge what happened here. What their agreement was with you, how your chats went, etc. Perhaps they were willing to help more than you say, or more than you believe. Maybe you could have better applied what they had taught you, or maybe you needed to slow things down and wait until they had some time for you. Or maybe they were negligent. I'm just going based on what you've posted, and it sort of raises a red flag for me when I only get one side of the story, when you're going to put yourself in the very best light you can (as most people would), and it doesn't make you sound that great.
Good point about first light about my self, you missed fact that I wrote that I mindset right anymore and went back to 5s I don't think that is a very light, that is what I did and in this journey 1-100 100-5 do you think its only my responsibility ? that's is what i`m asking, if they had full control, couldn't they do it better in anyway ar even to see a red flags like you see here ? Couldn't they made a difference in stake size or if they had full control when I was climbing limits when to go up, when to go down cause it was in 30$ limits, I went to 30s and came back to 15, same with 60s, why now with this stake size they left me hanging and go straight to bottom, I mean there is points starting with a long bad period in 100s I mean they could see more. About light, yes I was dead serious learner biggest volume first to step up to 100s in 80pupils school and I worked hard that's why I feel this way. Dark side of mine with them was being very angry about what they told before school about sharing profit and the reality that's hit me in high limits there where our friendship ended with them maybe that's why they didn't care more about my downroad. I see also how you see that its 100% my fault and don`t want to prove you otherwise I just feel how I feel about this and some can see my point other won`t but fact that some sees my perspective proves that I`m not making this up to just clean up responsibility from myself.
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Old 04-06-2019, 11:39 PM   #24
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

Like I said, hard for us to judge based on one side of the information. I've mostly just been observing that you continue to talk about everything they did wrong, and have yet to take any responsibility for your action - even again in this last post.
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:43 AM   #25
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Re: Situation with spin coach/stake school how to solve it ??

I just don't see how you'd go from 50 chipev at 60s to getting demoted from 15s without a bunch of tilt and entitlement spew. It sounds like you stopped playing your A game and started playing your D game on life tilt thinking you could crush lower stakes without trying and the problem kept compounding.
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