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Old 04-08-2020, 10:44 AM   #1
BirdsallSa
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Join Date: Oct 2014
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Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

I live in a city with multiple cardhouses that shut down in mid March due to the virus. When this happened, 2 private games began running that played much bigger than the usual games spread at the cardhouses. I approached a friend of mine who was playing in one of these games (private game A) and asked him if he would back me and he agreed to: pay 100% buyin for 50-50 split with makeup, with me getting 15% of winning sessions during makeup, giving me a minimum 2k shot per session in private game A as long as a round of 5 card hi/lo was being played. He plays in this game as well and would at his discretion allow me to go over 2k. There was an understanding that this game would likely end when the cardhouses reopen.

The stake has gone disastrous with me now 14k in makeup and the backer and I seem to be at odds about expectations. As an example, we do not have a predetermined number of hours that need to be played and I was pretty irritated about a session I played where I began the session 8k in makeup and was in for 3k. I had already been playing for 12 hours and was breaking even (after having been losing all day) and told the backer I wanted to quit but he told me I needed to stay until the fish of the game left. The fish then stacked me and I was 11k in makeup. More disturbingly, the backer began pressuring me to play on a site he is an agent for under the same terms and carrying over the makeup which I had no interest in doing. He seemed to feel I had an obligation to do so and made a comment that I was ďunwilling to grindĒ.

I am concerned that the backer has the impression that Iím obligated to play in any game of his choice while Iím in makeup (which was never stated when we agreed to this deal). Iím new to staking and donít know if this is standard although I would assume it isnít as it seems absurd for the player to be put into a game he doesnít even know if he can beat or in a game much lower stakes than where makeup was accrued.

I would also like to seek clarification on what is the standard outcome of this when the game ends. If the game ends with me 14k in makeup do I owe the backer or is this deal just over with him taking a loss?
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:05 AM   #2
auralex14
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Re: Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

You shouldn’t be obligated to play in any game you don’t want to play. That’s absurd.

However, just because this game might come to an end soon that doesn’t absolve you from paying the makeup unless that was established and agreed upon by both parties at the start. After all, you approached him initially. Seems kind of scummy to just quit $14k in makeup and go back to playing on your own once the card rooms reopen
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Old 04-09-2020, 08:21 AM   #3
BirdsallSa
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Re: Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

Quote:
Originally Posted by auralex14 View Post
You shouldn’t be obligated to play in any game you don’t want to play. That’s absurd.

However, just because this game might come to an end soon that doesn’t absolve you from paying the makeup unless that was established and agreed upon by both parties at the start. After all, you approached him initially. Seems kind of scummy to just quit $14k in makeup and go back to playing on your own once the card rooms reopen
I'm confused by your answer. If I owe him when the game ends, isn't he freerolling me? He collects 50% of my winnings when the game ends and I'm not in makeup, and I have to pay him the makeup figure when the game ends and I am in makeup (plus he keeps 50% of what I won in the beginning so it's even worst than a freeroll).

If what you mean by paying the makeup is I need to keep playing for him, that's not so simple. This private game (which actually got shut down today), had a very soft player pool and played significantly bigger than any cardhouse game. The game was always a minimum of 5-5-10 and played as big as 5-10-25 with over 100k on the table as well as games such as full rounds of $25 and $50 double board bomb pots. How is it fair for me to accrue 14k in makeup in games like this and then have to choose between paying that or playing in a grinder infested 5-5 game at the cardhouse with 10k on the table?
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Old 04-09-2020, 02:20 PM   #4
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

You don't owe the backer the 14k, but you do have to put in good faith efforts to grind despite the private games shutting down imo. I don't think asking you to go from 5-5-10 to 5-5 is that unreasonable, especially if there is no 5-5-10 to play. I also think yes, you do have an obligation to grind online.
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Old 04-09-2020, 09:33 PM   #5
auralex14
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Re: Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdsallSa View Post
I'm confused by your answer. If I owe him when the game ends, isn't he freerolling me? He collects 50% of my winnings when the game ends and I'm not in makeup, and I have to pay him the makeup figure when the game ends and I am in makeup (plus he keeps 50% of what I won in the beginning so it's even worst than a freeroll).

If what you mean by paying the makeup is I need to keep playing for him, that's not so simple. This private game (which actually got shut down today), had a very soft player pool and played significantly bigger than any cardhouse game. The game was always a minimum of 5-5-10 and played as big as 5-10-25 with over 100k on the table as well as games such as full rounds of $25 and $50 double board bomb pots. How is it fair for me to accrue 14k in makeup in games like this and then have to choose between paying that or playing in a grinder infested 5-5 game at the cardhouse with 10k on the table?
Yea sorry, after rereading my response I see I wasnít very clear.

My position would be that even when this game ends, youíre still in makeup and if heís willing to back you then you should continue the stake to try to clear the makeup. If heís unwilling to back you then itís over. You donít owe the $14k unless heís backing you.

Itíll take time but you should be able to clear $14k in a 5/5 game.

My suggestion would be to try to negotiate a deal with the backer. Maybe you can keep more than 15% of your winning sessions, or maybe heíll lower the makeup figure. The makeup doesnít just vanish though unless heís not staking you anymore
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Old 04-09-2020, 10:46 PM   #6
BirdsallSa
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Re: Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

Okay, I am going to try to negotiate something with him. I have a couple more questions for you guys:

Does he have the right to voluntarily quit backing me in a game I build makeup in when I want to continue playing, and demand I play another game while carrying over the makeup? For example, if I lose 6k in this 5-5 game, can he say he no longer wants me to play it and make me play 1-2 with 20k makeup?

Also, if a 5-5-10 or a 5-10 game becomes available, can he refuse to stake me in that game while I'm forced to play a 5-5? It seems reasonable to me that if I'm obligated to play for him in games outside of the one the stake was for, he should be obligated to stake me in the biggest game we can find up to 5-10-25 since that was the biggest game that was played in the stake (and the biggest loss which is half of the makeup figure).
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Old 04-12-2020, 08:09 AM   #7
The Standard Station
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Re: Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

I can definitely see how you guys are "at odds" due to whats occurred in this arrangement.For any staking deal, but especially one with someone you've never done business with before its absolutely critical to hammer out as many fine details as possible up front, as while the natural tendency is to say "we'll cross that bridge when we get there" but that only works out if things are going well. Once one party isnt happy, it becomes very difficult to get on the same page that works for both. I understand youre a noob at staking, so at least you learned this very important reality of staking and can avoid these spots in the future.

as to your situation:
-You need to be firm if you are tired and want to leave. At the point you dont want to be there you snap become the fish at the table. While yes its his money in the immediate sense, unless you can negotiate with him if you stay and lose it doesnt go to mu(never going to happen), then its your $ at risk too and you dont want to play tired.
-You should play whatever game he wants you to play, unless its in conflict with the game the stake was built around. You should definitely play online as it gives you guys a chance to really study and breakdown potential leaks, but also because unless hes an idiot hes not putting you in tough games. He also makes rakeback from your play online and having a player starting games and grinding makes him look good in the eyes of his partners and putting extra $ in his pocket which is a good gesture considering how the stake is going. Also online is insanely soft right now.
-At the end of the day it sounds like this was your buddy that YOU approached to stake you because you werent rolled for the game, and he more or less is doing you a favor. Its clear hes not experienced with staking, its clear youre likely breakeven/slight winner at best and now your friendship is getting wrecked because of petty disagreements in an agreement that you should be thankful youre even in to begin with.
-If the game ends and cardrooms resume, you are obligated to keep playing under stake so long as he wants to be staking you. You can also potentially come up with a settlement amount and buyout of the makeup, but its 14k in 5/5/10 thats easily cleared in 1 sesh.
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Old 06-19-2020, 03:20 PM   #8
Pakichu777
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Re: Need Help With Stake Going Bad (No Contract)

Make a good faith gesture, that you'll play 100 (or 200) hours in total after this great home-game ends, at stakes that your backer chooses, with you keeping X% of the profit (so you've got an incentive).

You're not supposed to indefinitely grind to make back his losses.
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