As mentioned before, the contract that is void from day one, should indeed be looked at as a set of rules that function in a system of honour and trust.

In my previous post I wrote down some lawarticles in simple english, why the contract is void.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...4&postcount=31

This is determined by European law. Which means anything agreed in the contract can not be enforced by law.

If pocarr still feels the contract IS legal (which I ensure u it is not) pocarr should take legal action against Marcin. Pocarr can do this to reach out to a lawyer that is specialized in backees local / european law, instead of blackmailing him with certain websites. The place where the trial would be held is in backees nearest court.

The websites are actually a completely different topic, and a violation of the law in each form weve seen. BOTH PARTIES DONT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND THAT THE WEBSITE AND BREACHING THE (void) CONTRACT TERMS ARE TWO SEPERATE THINGS.

The website is a violation of the law in different ways:
- copying facebook images to use them outside of facebook and without permission of 1: the person in the picture and 2: the person who took the picture is a violation of backees portrait rights
- leaking personal details is strictly forbidden by European 'protection of personal data'- law and

Claiming that you didnt write anything untrue does not matter at all.
If backee has not been found guilty to 'stealing' or anything alike, you can't say such a thing about backee. Even if you commit murder on national television, you cant just call someone a murderer if he has not been condemned yet.

The trial will be solely based on facts:
- a contract is void, hasnt met legal terms and therefore has not existed
- certain sites have been made which leak private information with the
purpose of blackmailing
- the sites claim to be made by pocarr, and alex even says in this topic he
made it.


My opinion:
I dont think Marcin should walk away from this 24k make up like this, though there is no legal contract that binds him to pay anything.
Though i think Marcin and Pocarr should reach a reasonable amount to be payed in a reasonable timeframe. Marcin prob invested all his money in a house or something and cant pay all that money at once.


These sites are UNACCEPTABLE, even if backee did steal I find such a site unacceptable. Law clearly states you can't just leak his privacy data.
If marcin was a thief and found guilty to be a thief during a trial, leaking privacy data will still be forbidden.
If a site like this will not be taken down asap, I would look for a lawyer that will work on a NO CURE NO PAY term.
You can actually get a LOAD of money from wealthy people who did this. Getting a lawyer to do his job for a certain % of the money you might get.


Reality:
No-one will take legal steps cause no-one of you knows how to do it. Parties are on the other side of the world and dont know which law applies.

Good post thanks appreciate the information.

Another clear reason the terms arent valid as if there isnt enough is the site and contract reference pocarr as a business/company entity. I would be very suprised if any such registered company exists anywhere in the world as you would be liable for high 6 figure maybe 7 figures federal taxes with those sexy lifetime graphs u post in the millions of profit.

Its blatent that pocarr is run by a few individuals and the entity pocarr is a fiction. So good luck saying your blackmail sites are nice and legal when that little fact becomes apparent.

This seems so cut and dry but will spell it out for you remove that site in very short order or expect any and all legal means at my disposal to do it for you. You dont play by any rules at all so i don't see why i should hold back either. Some of the methods i have at my disposal are quite drastic and think to much for this situation but i am willing to do them if you dont act. Negative feedback should be adjusted here as well to state there is no outstanding balance.

Despite my extensive one year experience as a law student in California, I have zero understanding of European law. And while I don't think Pocarr is entitled to the full amount, it seems the conversation has shifted to an argument about it's enforceability between legal laymen and a polarizing view of either 'Marcin owes the full amount' or 'Marcin owes nothing.'

Pretty sure the answer is somewhere in the middle.

All of the loans and things that can be considered loans (Paying for Elliot Roe's coaching, etc) are owed, without question. Even if Rob/etc are being highly unprofessional in this thread, it doesn't mean someone is allowed to ride off into the sunset with their money. The "He was being mean and doesn't deserve to get repaid" argument is the same flimsy one that's been propped up by scammers for years; it didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

As for the remainder of the MU, I don't know exactly what should be done but if we ignore the industry standard defense, one possible solution that would make sense is where both parties end up with the same return. So let's say Marcin chopped $300k with Pocarr in total, giving both $150k profit. The remainder of the MU ($20k?) could be chopped as well, which would leave both the backer and horse with an equal profit margin of ~$140k.

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all the feedback. I/we are trying to continually improve our business and as individuals. We realize this situation has been handled exceptionally poor on our end. Below we will give an exact timeline of events with Marcin. We felt in Marcin's specific case we had gone above and beyond. That said, it does not excuse my or Alex's behavior in this thread and we sincerely apologize. We know our posts are unacceptable.

When we post on 2p2, we know what has happened and often in an attempt to protect other backers and incentivize coming to a solution, we post too quickly and without all of the facts. We know a guy has stolen, received loans, or any other fact but sometimes omit those, knowing it just needs to be posted. This is an issue on our end and something we similarly need to improve upon.

Right now we have issues with roughly 9% of our players. For every 100 players we back, 91 do not cause problems. What is posted here is only the worst of the worst cases which makes it seem like there are more issues than there really are. 2p2 sees 100% of our issues when in reality they make up less than 10% of our business.

We understand one of the biggest issues is the websites we create. In the past we posted passports or ID's and at the suggestion of this thread and after giving it considerable thought we agreed and discontinued doing so. After receiving further feedback we agree we need to give more thought to what personal information goes up on such sites.

We have created a timeline of events with Marcin. We are posting this here as Marcin has requested all dialogue to go in this thread.



Marcin, we'd really like to work this out in PM. We feel confident after reading over the timeline of events and what we've provided that you'll agree the 50% we're asking for is fair.

February 2015 - Marcin wins a Pocarr contest and we buy him a new computer.

May 2015 - We request an Audit and find Marcin to be playing off-stake games with our funds. Marcin records a video for us admitting to playing off-stake games and that he understands if there are future issues a website will go up.



May 2015 - We have a mindset coach get in contact to set up first sessions, costs split, money fronted by Pocarr. Marcin has sessions totaling $1,400.

November 2015 - Gf loses job and we give a $1065 loan. No off-stake games until makeup is cleared and shows us he has $7k in savings.








January 2016 - Time off allowed.





July 2016 - Time off allowed.





August 2016 - Informs us Pokerstars has been investigating his account for 3 weeks. -- Time off allowed.

August 12th, 2016 - Asks to play on Party

August 13th, 2016 - We say yes and give Party stakes.

September 12th, 2016 - We ask for an update on Pokerstars.

September 16th, 2016 - We bump our conversation.

September 19th, 2016 - Bump again, can't get a response, haven't
heard from Marcin in 5 weeks and he has not played on Party.

September 23rd 2016 - Agrees to pay back the makeup in full $500/month starting October 23rd

October 30th 2016 - We message Marcin due to the late payment and he informs us he has spoken to friends and they say he owes nothing and refuses to pay

My final post on the matter... I've quit poker professionally and will not be returning as a job... Rob you post what you like and out me so future employers can judge me if you wish... However as I am not looking for future backing good luck... The games I played off stake I returned into the account from my own pocket and cleared that.... Then the loan was cleared by getting out I remember getting out and clearing it... As for the Elliot roe sessions this was forced upon me as part of a clause where I would be grinding the bowlest games unless I agreed.... When my pokerstars got banned due to a friend doing fraudulent activities I found a job meantime and considering playing poker on the side but the 33 freeze max without even a 109 Sunday major I found a joke... You saw it as a lowest variance way of getting your money back without giving a toss about my welfare and income.... You sent me an email last week I could have easily played 200 games but you knew I had life time ban on 888 so this was unrealistic target and a waste of time if I was just going to get dropped anyway...

Anyway I'm done posting on the matter now I'm going to seek advice on the websites because my girlfriend can be visibly identified from the photos to anyone who knows her and the whole miss loads of details out is comedy.... Funny how you haven't posted all the emails Alex sent me this week and only one side of the story....

Marcin owes 0$ Pocarr gonna receive $0 goodbye

PS maybe i will get my compensation for this slander by reporting "pocarr" to the IRS 15% reward for any recovered evaded tax sounds fun. Just being a good citizen right. You try and come across professional but your a joke and a fraud lets be honest. Your welcome to keep this thread on here but that website is still illegal regardless of whatever you post so expect to hear from me shortly.

why he cant play pokerstars ? I think all starts there .

This what we were told. But this is a very small issue in the grand sceme of things. Which breaches another term in our contract:

Should Player breathe when not asked to breathe, Player will owe the full starting bankroll and all makeup.

It's hilarious how you select your screenprints so selectively and omit the details where I paid back the money I lost off stake,,, the screenshots from poker stars support etc... Rob you really do amuse me... Least you keeping my lunch breaks at work fun reading this trash... this last post obviously is a last resort to make me look bad and to make me offer you a deal which after you didn't negotiate last time with a realistic figure or time frame isn't happening... If you were gonna post all these details why wait till now

Not sure but I think a post of mine was deleted randomly, anyway just said in response to acbarone that as I said too, loans are for sure separate from make up even if horse quits poker and 100% owed regardless of make up arrangement.

Coaching (or ER coaching in this case) would not be a loan, it is a business expense/investment. Sometimes arrangement can be it's added to make up or horse pays part of it but that wouldn't be owed as a loan.

And to be fair to pocarr and rob I think these last posts were very reasonable, I think it would have been a fair bit better than what was originally posted as well as the rude stuff (even if I empathise to some degree the frustrating situation from your perspective of feeling everyone is against u etc it obv wasn't the reasonable way to respond).

Player will be coerced to make a video for playing some off stake games and replacing the funds shortly after to hold over them forever.

ORLY

About the level of intelligence i would expect in a serious matter concerning someones future and welfare.

Regarding the $1065 loan you obsess about.

From no idea if that loan was cleared to

Quite a turnaround Marcin is adamant that the loan was cleared the burden of proof is on you not just we say it so it is. Pretty clear the hyperbole you are both capable of spewing to suit your purpose.

Im astounded people are still saying pocarr deserve to receive anything here. They create a contract in the image of pocarr that does not exist in any legal fashion. They collect evidence of any small misdemeanour and facebook images as a tool to blackmail anyone that steps out line using this fictional entity which is just Alex Carr and Rob and whoever else. Guess these sites sound alot better being called professional staking group pocarr over 4 or 5 guys gambling on others which is what it essentially is. Anyway w/e looks like this is done bar the efforts to remove your illegal website. All well and good apologising for both your conduct throughout this thread in the 11th hour but it doesn't make either of you look any better or less stupid.

Pocarr your a bunch of jokers , your contract is not worth the paper it's written on .you have made plenty of money out of Marcin and what you are doing is bullying and harassment . Call your self a business no business on there right mind would ever conduct themselves the way you have . Most people are backed because they obv have poor money management or they would never give 50 percent away. It's not a loan your backing him to gamble on your behalf because of this , this is the risk you take . Unfortunately things didn't work out such is life get a grip and move on he owes you nothing there is nothing you can do and the way your going is only going to damage your business if it is actually a legitimate business in the eyes of the law anyway. You don't know what's going on in these people's Life's and something like this could backfire really badly .

Agreed.

I assumed that the coaching payments were added to MU -- perhaps I've read something in past Pocarr related disputes about horses having to pay for coaching, or I could be mixing up entirely different group. Easily could be wrong, but if I'm right then the coaching sessions *could be* seen as loans, even though it would be another issue of something that isn't 'industry standard.'

Irrelevant

Irrelevant

Irrelevant

Let's focus on the relevant issues at hand and leave the general Pocarr hate at the door, as it often gets in the way and makes it much easier for Rtinnion/etc to simply brush off legitimate criticism.

You can say it irrelevant all you like but tell you what's not irrelevant that Pocarr is not even a registered business and the whole backing thing would not stand up in a court of law , I will stop the Pocarr hate when they stop the bullying and harassment . I work and pay taxes , now if this is a legitimate business it should be registered and pay there dues so I think it's on the best interest they stop this nonsense now .

Any comment on these tax questions "pocarr"/gang of gamblers?

Curious if you paid 30% tax on the 6 million profit you have posted in your staking thread. Previously mentioned that you have a clause stating all horses are responsible for taxes on their share of profits however im sure you don't make every person sign a tax form to release you from your burden on this 6 million you have declared.

You do your best to post a timeline which depicts the backee as the evil party leaving out anything positive so its reasonable to ask if you run your business in a ethical way. for example paying taxes on the profits you extract from other peoples hard work. When gambling is done by a individual it is tax free in most of the EU and various other countires. When it is done as a organised effort with others "working" for you such as pocarr you are liable to pay income tax not just in the USA but alot of other countries where there is no tax for individuals.

So are you a registered business called pocarr or not? If not then maybe the tax situation is a bit better for you, but then you have no business posting thief websites as pocarr do you.

relevant unless pocarrs only concern is their precious money not the welfare of the people who they are leeching from.

This timeline is very reasonable.

It looks like Rob and Alex give backee a lot of space within the deal. Even send money as a loan, after backee losing money to offstake games. This posting of a timeline as far as I can tell is not in violation of any laws. Uploading a vid he sent u privately is though.
-Marcin, why would you ever make a 'confessions' vid?

To be fair:
Pocarr is an excellent stable to work with.
Pocarr pays a lot to top coaches that backee can use for free, and many things are negotiable. Ofcourse we only see the negative feedback in this thread, thats where it's for. They back a lot of people and many cant resist the money. Unfortunately they are being portrayed as a shady company, in reality they are just desperate to reduce their losses, cause they have no legal way to force backee to pay back. (They don't take legal action against backee cause they know their chances are extremely low and most likely only will cost them more).
Therefore they chose previous approach which they now agree on isnt the right way. Great! Everyone makes mistakes. No reason to attack eachother.

Ofcourse we have to look at this both ways. It's very understandable Pocarr wants as much money as possible. They have a lot of expenses and will prob only earn half of the 50% profit chop. The whole community seems to agree with pocarr getting around 50-ish % of MU.


Unfortunately backee not holding up with the contract (void or legal), or just not doing as agreed upon outside the contract, is the risk of this business.
Backee is breaching a civil-right agreement, where Pocarr actually breaks the law in a criminal-law way which is punishable by the public prosecutor. There is a huge difference here which Pocarr in their own interest would want to avoid.

Its a business where TRUST and ETIQUETTE are key.


I'd like to add that martin technically did not break any terms of pokerstars. His account (Apparently) got blocked cause of other reasons (friends multiaccounting) so if marcin didnt break the terms of stars, he's not owing make up according to term 27 of pocarrs agreement. Again, both parties can't prove this.

A lot of the thread seems to be an anti-stable sentiment, eg leeching comment above etc. I know that pocarr goes out of its way to help players improve their skill and life situations (being a past horse of theirs) and does a lot more than many other stables around, and perhaps they feel taken advantage of themselves when somebody racks up makeup and decides to quit poker.

I disagree with the industry standard of wiping makeup in that scenario, as it seems too easy to angle (as I think moshman said earlier), and the player should have some liability to pay back imo, but as to what % I have no idea how to go about deciding on that number.
Even if the contract has no actual legal power, it should still matter that an agreement was made between the two parties and was broken.

I do also agree that Alex and Rob's comments yesterday in the thread were out of line but today they've been more useful and professional.

It's a lot to digest, so spewed out some random takeaways from reading through the thread and perhaps I'm biased due to my involvement with pocarr, but I'm trying to see it from a neutral perspective, if thats possible at all.

Guys come on. The matter is whether Marcin should pay, and if so how much. The fact he made them lots of money doesn't matter, an extreme example is if horse x chops $1m, then steals 1k it's still stealing 1k. They deserve to be outted just the same as if they didn't chop the 1m.

This tax thing is a completely different issue. If he owes, he owes. If you want to question their tax practices that's a different topic and does not take away from their horses stealing (not Marcin specifically just in general) or doing other wrong things. If i find out an investor of mine is a racist I still have to pay out the money I owe them.

And as said, it being legally enforceable or not is not the only issue here- there is genetlemens agreeemnts at play in this industry and even if he's going to quit and doesn't care about what poker players think of his reputation I think he should do what is "right".

Question is what is right.


Anyone reasonable should pretty clearly agree it's not 0, or 100. Even if the contract isn't legally enforceable, that's not a reason for it to be 0, clearly. He agreed to the terms and took the benefits (opportunity to play, make money, coaching/mentoring, etc). So he should keep up his side.

If they not a shady company then why are they not operating as a legitimate business . I am not sure the legalities of it all but I shall be passing all the details on to the IRS and see what they have to say . It's infortunate the way it as worked out but o disgusted at the way Pocarr have handled this and apologiseing after does not cut it .

He made a offer of 25% and then offered 30%. I think that signifies he did try to do what was right even after all the crap pocarr did by posting personal details on the net they had no business doing. Im pretty confident if this situation happened with any other stable this thread would never have happened. Player chops $300k then gets in 25 makeup and decides to quit poker. They discuss it and arrange a buyout he already offered 8k which im quite sure every other stable would accept if not $6k. This whole fiasco came about by them demanding 100% and then blackmailing him without even trying to compromise at all. I would find it a pretty tough pill to swallow to do whats right after that happening but he still offered 30% and they refused.

Maybe leeching is the wrong word trent32la but sending 5 pokerstars transfers a week vs sat grinding for 40-50 hours a week hardly seems equitable if for whatever reason horse owes 100% of makeup if he decides to quit does it.

The question is what is right indeed , if Pocarr are avoiding taxes that's technically theft from the government and from all tax payers , Marcin is just quoting poker he not stolen anything yet he his getting abused and harassed.

I love when people say these stables are "leeching" off their horses by taking a 50% cut of profits.

In reality, the horses are actually leeching off the stables, as they are putting up 0% of the of the buyins and getting 50% of the profits. If these stables didn't exist, the majority of horses wouldn't be able to afford to play poker for real money at their current stakes. Also add in the fact that the horse can still make money off a staking deal but losing overall due to being in makeup at the right times, and it's even more disturbing.

If you are a business, money is always your concern. How are you going to run a business without money?

If you're a horse and want freedom and to play by your own rules, then go play on your own money. When you're playing with someone else's money, you're going to play by their rules, plain and simple.

If it's agreed by the community or whoever else has a relevant say in the matter he owes something, and he doesn't pay, its theft. But i realise he did make an offer, which is at worst at least reasonable.

You can also argue that uk poker players (or anyone) not paying taxes (even tho it's legal) is morally wrong to other tax payers but that's also a different issue.

I do agree as I made very clear that the site (especially the first one) was incredibly out of line. But it's also not great form accepting 100pc (even if it's too much) then not sticking to it and saying "I owe nothing after talking to some ppl". Correct me if I'm wrong but only offered anything after this thread and the website right?



As for leeching, clearly backing deals for the most part are a mutually beneficial agreement. Can't say either side is leeching off the other.

As people have stated earlier, taxes regarding Pocarr are irrelevant to this thread. The tax matter belongs in a separate discussion.