I staked John Clancy (aka Johnathan Clancy or Jclan5) for mainly $5/$10 live and occasionally online and $2/$5 live cash games starting on 10/28/15 and ending on 1/25/16. Deal basically was session-based: if John owes no make-up and has a winning session, then he keeps 50% of profit for a session and I keep the other 50% for myself. If John is in make-up and has a winning session, he keeps 25% of the profit, I keep 25% for myself, and 50% goes towards makeup. This was my first time ever staking anyone and I made John aware of that from the beginning. With all things considered, I believe a fair resolution would be $10k. I will change the thread title to resolved and update the thread if John settles up with me.

John then went on a downswing, which I confirmed was pretty bad as I was usually there playing and saw the run bad. Then the downswing kept going, with John losing about $30K altogether in roughly 3 months. Keep in mind these are soft $2/$5 and $5/$10 games he's playing; Portland-area players are weak overall. Also, the games in Portland are rake free and John is a known poker pro (who has done well in both live and online poker) for over 7 years and is considered by many as one of the top five cash game players in Portland. Both he and I are considered by most regulars as by far one of the top three players at any given table.

Somewhere in that time I started getting suspicious that John was not being honest. John was having big losses at games I wasn't present for, and he barely ever had a winning session. It occurred to me that John might have incentive to lie about winnings and losses for 2 reasons; to steal money, and to lose so much that I got so frustrated and dropped him and John wouldn't owe make-up. (I looked through the records and found that essentially all of the days except two that John played when I wasn't present, he claimed a loss. John also started asking if he could play in private home games he knew about, which I said no to as I got more suspicious.)

One day at the $5-10 game, I went to use the bathroom. Note that John has only been playing for 2 hours that day and I was there the whole time before the bathroom break. While I was gone, John added on $200 to his stack. This was his only add-on during that hour, confirmed by a player and a dealer later. Less than 5 min after the addon, John told me he added on $400. Then later John texted and said he made a mistake and said he added on $500, not $400. Then after John cashed out and left, John then texted me to say that he actually added on $600, and not $500 or $400. I specifically asked John if he only added on once, and John said yes, it was the only time, and confirmed that a couple times. This confirmed a lot of suspicions I’ve had.

After that conversation, John probably suspected that I suspected him. The next day John told me that he wanted a better staking deal, as playing for 25% of winning sessions wasn't enough for him; he wanted 50%. He wanted this despite being a big loser so far in these games. This seemed like another ploy to try to get out of the staking deal again, by claiming that it wasn't a good deal and he couldn't continue it.

While of course it's unknown how much exactly he actually took, even stealing/lying once puts the whole relationship in doubt. Plus it hurts me even more because if I had trust in John, I would continue staking him, believing that he'd recoup his losses. But because I can't trust him, I have to break the contract with John in considerable make-up ($32k in makeup) and John down ~$30K.

On 2/1/16, John texted me to tell me that he only stole from me in the last two weeks. This is a couple days after I first told him I caught him stealing. Yet earlier on 1/17/16 he texted me angrily to tell me that I didn’t trust him, etc. because I texted him that same day (on 1/17/16) that I no longer wanted him to play unless I was in the same room. So John is claiming that around the same time I first made it clear to John that I was suspicious of him, he decided to start stealing. It’s either that or he’s only admitting to stealing in last two weeks because he believes that’s when I first realized he was stealing. Going through my text messages, there were a few times before 1/17/16 where John claimed to have lost more than what he originally texted me. This is the exact same thing he did in the two weeks he claimed he started stealing. Yet he never even bothered to mention these earlier times to me.

John’s best friend texted me, “He admitted to taking $ which he maintains is no more than 3-4k , and wants to make that right ASAP.” Yet only after John sees all the texts I sent his best friend, then John tells me that he (John) only stole ~$1500. Then a few days later, John told me it was actually ~$1200 and not ~$1500 that he stole.


http://i.imgur.com/OcCRoUk.png
http://i.imgur.com/6S8IHt4.png
http://i.imgur.com/PEL0WNp.png
http://i.imgur.com/74YWzXG.png
http://i.imgur.com/Nz6oMuf.png

This is how much John has won/lost in makeup per week since I’ve started staking him. This is all over the course of 3 months. John has played ~300 hours TOTAL. He has lost EVERY single week I’ve staked him. He has played a lot at live poker, online poker cash games and online tournies and is down money at every single location (even for online poker) he’s played at since I’ve started staking him.

Week #1: -$3,205
Week #2: -$2,648
Week #3: -$1,242
Week #4: -$484
Week #5: -$7,825
Week #6: -$2,082
Week #7: -$2,749
Week #8: -$3,472
Week #9: -$1,942
Week #10: -$640
Week #11: -$780
Week #12: -$1,300
Week #13: -$4,050
Week #14: -$45

Listed below are all the days he played when I wasn’t playing and his profit for those days.

On 11/7/15, John lost $1280 at live poker.
On 11/8/15, John lost $440 at live poker.
On 11/15/15, John lost $987 at live poker.
On 11/20/15, John made $2640 profit at live poker. He kept $660 for his share.
On 11/22/15, John lost $560 at live poker.
On 11/23/15, John lost $1190 at live poker.
On 11/27/15, John lost $3280 at live poker.
On 12/4/15, John lost $680 at live poker.
On 12/6/15, John lost the entire $524 on Bovada I staked him for.
On 12/11/15, John lost $2260 at live poker.
On 12/18/15, John lost $3500 at live poker.
On 12/25/15, John lost the entire $1952 he put online for Bovada and BCP that I staked him for.
On 12/29/15, John made $880 total profit at live poker. He kept $220 for his share.
On 12/30/15, John lost $440 at live poker.
On 1/1/16, John lost $640 at live poker.
On 1/4/16, John lost $780 at live poker.
On 1/16/16, John lost the entire $1300 on Bovada that I staked him for.

John lost $12,170 total when I was there. John lost $17,056 total when I was not there. Yet roughly 90% of his sessions he played, I was at the same table as him. $3776 of the $17,056 was lost at online poker where John said he’s made $120k profit in two years.

Also, look at the numbers closely. Out of 17 times, he's only had two winning days. And the days he's lost when I'm not there, he tends to lose big. Also, with online poker, he's lost it over several days instead of just one day for each time I staked him.

John never ever admitted to stealing from me until after I told him I caught him stealing. He always texted me about big losses and bad beats he suffered and almost never big hands he won. In fact, EVERY single poker video or picture of a poker hand he has ever sent me is of a hand where he lost a big pot through either a bad beat or cooler. Yet I’ve personally seen his friend receive videos of Bovada hands from John where John won big pots and this is even before I started backing John. On 12/21/15, John got first place in $30+$3 buyin online Black Chip Poker tourney for $487, but never ever bothered to mention this win to me. On at least another occasion, John won a big pot while I was at a different table in the same room, but didn’t mention it to me. The reg who lost the hand later mentioned this hand to me and only when I asked John about the hand did John admit to winning that pot. Later, the reg informed me that John told the reg not to mention to me any hands John plays in the future.

How come you staked him to begin with ?

Common theme in each of these stories: had OP ended the professional relationship and tried to recoup his losses as soon as he got that tingling sensation that something wasn't right, OP would've saved himself some time, money, and aggravation. Very easy to dismiss OP by saying "don't stake people" but that's not the reality of the poker world for many.

Live cash staking requires the most trustworthy dynamic I can imagine wrt staking, due to the inability to verify results, and I'm surprised a good poker player who can presumably read people well actually fell for this. It's a tough spot to be in and I think you threw good money after bad. Hopefully you guys can figure something out to salvage the situation.

OP, you are such a staking fish. Unbelievable that you kept him so long. I don't feel bad for you, I can only laugh at you.

that may be the worst staking deal I've ever heard of

I'm posting this thread not just to out him but to also look for advice on how much experienced people would think was a fair amount to consider he owes me. I realize that this situation probably wasn't handled the best but I'm posting to both educate people and to see what people think is a fair amount that John should pay me.

Would have had better luck with chino

There is an unfair- but nevertheless real- tipping-point when someones actions are so utterly naive, it constitutes a kind of negligence and thusly shifts responsibility from the scammer and onto the scammed.

You're there bro.

If this guy was top 3 , why did he need a stake?

Is it ok to stake someone who is playing in the same game?

If he loses every time it is.

Week 14 must've felt like a massive win...

it sucks to be played by people you trust and i feel bad for you, but why would you continue staking him after week 6, i mean 6 losing weeks in a row for a good player in juicy games makes no sense.

What is it about victim-blaming that makes people feel so god damn good about themselves? Sure OP was naive and should probably have cut his losses much earlier, but there is no way he is more at fault than the guy who outright stole from him (assuming OP's allegations are true).

As for a figure to collect, I would want to collect whatever I think he stole (as opposed to what he lost playing poorly or running bad, which unlike theft are risks backers must assume). If he admits to stealing $4k he probably stole $12k or something. At this point though, I'd consider getting anything outta this guy a victory.

There has to be some threshold where basic common sense prevails. Once you cross it then actually becomes a false statement.

If you set yourself up to get scammed and then you get scammed you're not actually a "victim". Both parties are guilty here.

I would think around 15K would be a good amount to consider John to owe OP. Obviously this will be difficult to collect, but I think OP is asking for what is at least theoretically, all factors considered, a fair amount to consider John to owe.

Couple reasons:

•*John admits to stealing 2-4K (or whatever he finally claims). We can reasonably assume he stole more than that, but there is no way to know what the total is.
•*Even if he did steal only 2-4K, there has to be a penalty for stealing/lying. Otherwise, any stakee could freeroll a staking situation by, when in a significant amount of make-up, just losing (or exaggerating losses, which is stealing, but has the same effect to the backer) in order to influence the backer to drop them. There has to be a penalty because otherwise this would be a rampant activity for horses in a lot of makeup, and for the most part this would be impossible to catch. (It just happened to occur here that this guy both made it obvious he was stealing and admitted to it, which will be very rare just because this would usually be so hard to get caught at.)

Obviously there is no set precedent for the perfect amount to owe. But all things considered, around 15K seems about right to me. It just feels right. Even though I think an argument could be made that, if he is actually a winning player, he's really screwed you and should pay more because if he was playing and reporting wins/losses honestly he would have gotten you out of makeup eventually.

Curious what other people think would be a fair amount. Obviously OP will probably not be getting any money from this guy, but it's an interesting discussion about what the guy should owe.

Some of the things Joseph is mentioning in the thread are true and some/most of the things he is lying about/straight making up. We have detailed conversations where many times Joseph legitimately fishes for information and accuses me of things he assumes happend to gain/the most possible $ back. Joseph also leaves out a lot of information about the whole situation at hand.

He doesn't mention throughout this whole post that we came to an agreement of re-payment. We both agreed upon terms that we both thought were fair...well later I found out that wasn't the case as he broke terms of the agreement and reached out to many people that were not/should not have been involved.

Throughout the whole process he did not want to work with me at all in figuring anything out. He never wanted to talk. He only wanted to create as many stories he could to get the most amount of $ back.

If anyone would like to contact me further about the whole situation at hand and not just some of it please contact me either on here through direct PM or contact me and I will give my phone #.

What was the total amount of money that you stole?
What information did he leave out about the whole situation at hand?
Which things are true and which things is he lying about/making up?
What did you agree to repay?
What were the terms of the agreement that he broke?
Why did you steal Joseph's money?
Would you agree to arbitration from an impartial member of the community if you two cannot reach a resolution?

I feel stupid for asking this but why does a winning player need to be staked? Assuming he's a winning player, why would he want to go from keeping 100% of his winnings to keeping 50%?

Also, **** you to all the haters in this thread. The OP feels bad enough without being chastised.

Throughout this whole process I was very willing to work with him to figure out the best/fastest way we could resolve the issue. He wasn't interested in that whatsoever. All he wanted to do was exploit the fact that I admitted to stealing in the first place. What I did was so wrong. Was very wrong and I intended to pay him back every $.
We agreed that he wouldn't post this or make public. This is a situation that should be handled between both parties. He reached out too other people not involved and involved them against our terms. He's now asking to see what everyone thinks I should pay him after the fact we already agreed upon a figure that was more then fair.
if he didn't like our terms he shouldn't have agreed to them. Now he's asking everyone what they think I should pay him..exploiting the situation to get the most $ back.

What was the figure you agreed upon?
How much have you payed him back so far?

If you want specifics PM me

I sent you a PM last night after you posted itt, I have not received a response. I just resent it again.

Pmed you

Everything I've posted in this thread is true. I was very careful in only posting things that did happen rather than making assumptions about what happened. I have hundreds of text messages between John and me that show how much he told me he cashed out for, etc. I also still have all the hands and videos he ever sent me and I took a screenshot of the tourney win he never told me about. The dealer and regs can confirm what I said about them is true as well. All of that proves basically everything I've posted in the thread. Also, John made a deep run in a big live tourney on 4/30/16. I asked him about it and he told me he was backed for it and didn't get any of it. Whether that is true or not, I don't know but there is nothing preventing him from claiming the exact same thing for any future big tourney wins.