Wait, so you get over 2.5 years to pretend to try and pay me, but I only get one night to decide on your generous offer?

That hardly seems fair.

You know it occurred to me that surely a few of our conversations took place via email. Now, I'm the type that regularly goes back and deletes old emails, but hey, I thought it was worth a peek.

These are from late May through early July of 2011. Note the lack of any reference to MU or him only "really" owing $235. I'm not 100% positive, but I think somewhere between my first two emails and his responses is when he told me via Skype (or AIM? I used AIM? Hmmm...) that he had cashed the larger, $900something check from PS he told me he was receiving and used it to pay bills. He acknowledges this in the email as well. I frankly have no idea what he got from PS at what point, since it seems he wasn't honest with me about some of it, but I know I never got a dime.

5/22/11

5/23/11

5/27/11

6/2/11

6/2/11

6/2/11

6/2/11

6/3/11

6/3/11

7/5/11

7/7/11

I guess I can check and see if AIM saves logs, I haven't been on there in so long I'm not even sure what my account was. I'll give it the old college try though.

LOL @ this whole "if that wall of text you posted gets deleted" crap. Yes, I'm sure you'd like RJ's explanation of what happened to disappear, wouldn't you? That and "I am not going to explain the math to you because I'm sure you won't understand." are great ways to avoid explaining yourself. Tell you what, since you seem to have deemed RJ incapable of understanding your complicated mathematics, how about you try it out on the rest of us?

It's time for you to realize that you don't get to dictate the terms of how you pay someone money that you owe them. I understand that there is disagreement on the amount that is owed, and you want that decided by a third party. That's fine, and I bet RJ is amenable to it as well. But there's no reason her "wall of text" needs to come down for that to happen - how do you expect anyone to decide what's reasonable without it?

It's pretty much always in posters' best interests to resolve things like this amicably, especially when it's a relatively small amount - by small I mean not potentially live-crushing debt like tens of thousands of dollars or more. Whether you owe $235, $950, or something in between, I'm sure you can figure a way to pay it back. Unresolved debts on 2+2 never go well for the debtor.

If you want to get this resolved, it would be great if you could drop all the attitude where you get to dictate the terms of how this happens. One thing I will agree on, though - if this ends up in its own thread, it should be in the Marketplace.

I'd want some sort of say on who the arbitrator was, but otherwise, I'm willing for that as a possibility.

I'm not deleting anything, though. Even if I could, which I can't at this point anyway.

Also really regretting my tendency to just delete old emails/PMs, but honestly I never thought I'd hear from him again.

There you go, OP.

Like I said, I'm not going to participate at all unless personal emails and references to me being a thief or a scammer are deleted. If I am going to be called a thief, I might as well get something out of it.

If they are untrue accusations, prove it, and that would get some very serious consideration. I can't see any reason that we wouldn't remove false accusations.

If you can't prove the accusations false, what would deleting them accomplish for you anyway? They'd just get put right back up by someone once you failed to disprove them.

Of course, you could make them false by repaying the money.

If you won't pay money you legitimately owe, that makes you a thief. You admit you owe SGTRJ the 235 and you won't pay. That makes you a thief.

I'm not going to prove anything except that what she thinks she is owed is not what she is owed. I am innocent until proven guilty and if not, it's a kangaroo court that I have no time for.

Just so you know, this is being handled the way it is every time something like this comes up.

Here's the problem with the way you want to do things. You say that it's not fair to accuse until it is proven. How would that work exactly? It would mean that no one could accuse someone else of being a scammer, as they couldn't prove it. One side can't prove something in a vacuum - the other side needs to be allowed to defend it. Until that happens, nothing can be proven, and therefore no one can be accused?

The way it actually works here - we allow people to make accusations like this. If the accused party wants us to take the accusation down, we ask them to prove the accusation false. Many times, one can never be 100% sure of which side is in the right, so everything gets left up - but the accused has been allowed to present their side of the story, so at least people can judge for themselves. But if it becomes obvious the accusation is completely false, then posts may be deleted or edited.

But again, if the two of you went to some form of arbitration, you would hopefully both agreed to the rendered decision. Then once you had paid back the money owed, I would think it would be realistic to consider some post editing, or at the very least to note that the money had been repaid in full.

Demanding that everything is deleted before you'll even discuss anything isn't very conducive to getting things done.


Edit to add: Also, I'm curious about this, which RJ quotes you as having said in two different emails:

Did you not say that? If you did, then I'm really not understanding - you ask her to post about the dispute, and then when she does, you ask her to delete it or you won't talk about it.

it's a simple math thing bobo, I have every record and transaction and she's trying to get me to pay something I don't owe her. I think she thinks she can get away with w/e because she's a mod but I couldn't give two ****s if she's a mod anymore. I cared for a while.

This is absurd because BF busted everyone. All she had to do was work with me and put me with a live backer. Had she done that, I'd have played all the 1Ks in the 2012 WSOP. I tried to transfer the MU to another backer for her even though I didn't have to, but she wouldn't have any of that. If she had allowed me to work with another backer and transfer the MU, she'd have been paid out 2 years ago

but she refused because she doesn't care about the money, she cares about hanging someone up in NVG and stoning them

I'm not playing ball and don't care. Until it's proven that I scammed that stuff has to come down.

It doesn't matter that she's a mod; this will be treated the same as every other case like this. And it won't be going in NVG.

If you want to get this resolved, we can do so in a Marketplace thread and you guys decide on who you want to have arbitrate things. But just like any other similar situation, that's not going to be conditional on posts you don't like being deleted first. If accusations are proven false, I think it's reasonable that they be clarified/edited/deleted at that time.

and by the way, I talked with a bunch of backers and mentioned my MU + debt with all of them. all she had to do was vouch, and she gets paid all the 900

since she wouldn't work with me at all I consider the MU completely expired unless she can get me a better deal than I'm getting now in a set amount of time

well then we are at an impasse because I will steadfastly refuse to participate if those emails are not erased

if they are erased I will open a thread in MP staking and post the numbers

So you want a thread where only your own side of the story is to be told?

And you didn't answer my earlier question - did you not tell RJ "If you want to dispute this please post your thread"?

Well, at the moment we have what a lawyer would describe as a prima facie case that you are a scammer.

The fact that you won't play ball leaves that as the status quo.

"It's pretty ez to figure out what I owe u. I think it's like 1Kish..." is my favorite part.

This is outstanding. I wonder if it's GTO?

lol attentionnoone

You admit that you owe her money, but are refusing to pay. If that isn't being a scammer, then we are defining the terms differently. I can accept that. But, if that is the case, then just what kind of thief are you? Because clearly you have no integrity here.

Also, let's suppose that you played all the $1K events at the WSOP. There is no guarantee that you would have cashed in any of them. The only guarantee I see is that your make up would have increased. How does this help your case?

SGT RJ has just stated that she is open to arbitration. Bobo has just stated that, if the charges against you are found to be false, then the offending posts can come down. Seriously, just what more do you want?

And to repeat Bobo's question - did you truly ask for SGT RJ to post the emails? And, if so, why are you now complaining that she did?

Why is it her responsibility to find you a backer? Since you've talked with so many, why hasn't this already been handled? By that I mean you have a new backer, and SGT RJ has her money back.



Just wondering why you bumped a thread that was dormant for 4 months, other than to prove you're both dishonest and something of a total jerk.

I know - how about if the emails are erased, you start the Marketplace thread, and then all of the emails get reposted there?

Would that make you happy? (And, no, I have no idea if either Bobo and/or SGT RJ are agreeable to this. It just strikes me as being an amusing solution.)



Lee

1. He never mentioned anything ever before about me finding him another backer until these recent emails. I hadn't heard from him since before WSOP 2012 in any way shape or form. Further, he knows and has always known I'm not a backer by trade. I'm not hiding potential backers in my back pocket and refusing to give them to him. I just don't know any live backers other than using the MP.

2. I never said I would refuse to accept a buy out from a backer or that I wouldn't work with him. This is clear to anyone who can read. The only thing I refused to do was lie to a potential backer and give him a glowing recommendation. Beyond that I don't care about his personal poker life. But you can see the essential blackmail attempt. Lie for me, or no money for you. Sorry, but I'm not vouching for someone who stole from me just to get paid. If that makes me the bad guy so be it.

3. Yep, all I wanted was to crucify someone in NVG. That's why I waited so long and kept almost no records. It's a brilliant plan, really.

Well, old AIM logs can't be recovered unless you run specific programs to save them. Ah well.

However, PS apparently does keep transaction logs for this long, so I have a complete transaction history for the stake. My sending him money (obviously) indicates the original stake or a resupply. Him sending me money indicates he is back out of MU and we are profit splitting at that time.

I'm not going to lie and claim I'm 100% sure, but I think the last $200 was after the conversation we had reference the money he "borrowed". I recall a fairly long convo about specific games he wanted to play where he was +EV but the roll wasn't really big enough to handle at that time. IIRC, I didn't take a profit split around that time to give him the additional $250 to bump the roll to $750, and send him the $200 to cover the "loan" as it were.

Also I think the first transaction wasn't the full $500 because I kept running up against PS person to person transfer limits at the time. I remember wanting to get him the money before year's end but I needed my limits increased.

475477757 12/4/2010 11:32:58 AM USD -400.00 Unreal_Zeal
479598646 12/13/2010 5:15:12 AM USD 150.50 Unreal_Zeal
483375089 12/20/2010 8:06:35 PM USD -500.00 Unreal_Zeal
487434116 12/29/2010 10:16:28 AM USD -500.00 Unreal_Zeal
493580665 1/10/2011 6:31:01 AM USD 1,083.74 Unreal_Zeal
497173340 1/17/2011 7:10:21 AM USD 52.00 Unreal_Zeal
500287941 1/23/2011 10:31:38 AM USD -500.00 Unreal_Zeal
504539942 1/31/2011 11:20:08 AM USD 78.31 Unreal_Zeal
506188628 2/3/2011 2:21:27 PM USD -500.00 Unreal_Zeal
507442154 2/6/2011 1:21:32 AM USD 500.00 Unreal_Zeal
508040526 2/7/2011 8:32:57 AM USD 288.54 Unreal_Zeal
510826968 2/12/2011 8:46:48 PM USD 212.00 Unreal_Zeal
510827697 2/12/2011 8:47:56 PM USD 16.49 Unreal_Zeal
513679297 2/18/2011 5:23:06 PM USD -500.00 Unreal_Zeal
517224463 2/25/2011 10:42:54 PM USD 250.00 Unreal_Zeal
518298412 2/28/2011 3:00:01 AM USD 425.00 Unreal_Zeal
521214953 3/5/2011 6:28:46 PM USD -485.00 Unreal_Zeal
521928187 3/6/2011 10:43:57 PM USD 49.09 Unreal_Zeal
531517662 3/26/2011 11:25:43 PM USD -200.00 Unreal_Zeal

I also recall talking to him the week of BF, or at the latest late the week before. To my recollection, the stake was even at that time. I certainly don't recall him being in MU, nor do any of the emails from late May of that year reference him being in MU, from me or him.

I'm not really sure what these prove other than that the stake existed - without the attendant conversations I don't really remember what was going on each time.

Finally, we met once in person, and IIRC, it was while the stake was still ongoing. I don't recall any money changing hands at that time, but as I said, I did consider him a friend.

every time I've seen one of these things go down, the thread title is changed until the person has a chance to rebut the accusation

usually some idiot will put such and such is a scammer, then the mods change the title if the alleged scammer participates

my personal emails are not erased, so I'm not participating

I pretty much knew she was going to try and strong arm me once she became mod, she got way more aggressive

she became a mod because she was willing to post false accusations against a high stakes player, that's the only reason she's a mod

bobo seriously, you can't get anyone good at poker to mod anymore, the forum is almost barren now, nothing to read, the tipping point was when you hired this witch as mod

I will pay her the 235 when i see her at the casino if she wants it, but I'm not going through any arb and I personally consider the matter closed

Cool, I consider you a thief and a liar.

LOL at how I became a mod.

How the **** did I get more aggressive? Have I been badgering you to pay me for the last 2.5+ years? The entire reason this went this way is because you wanted me to lie to get you a backer and I refused. You were aggressive with me, not the other way around, and I finally decided I'd had enough of your constant lying and sob stories and rationalizations about how you can't/won't pay me what you owe.

Guess I'll talk to Admo about a website. I hope there's no complicated math involved. You know us girls don't understand math.

Also absolutely brilliant to offer to pay me at a spot where I can't accept the money. Genius, really. If I ever become a lying thief, I'll make sure to offer to repay them on the moon, and if they can't get there then oh well too bad so sad.

OK, I've removed your name from the title of the thread.

just going to address you one more time

you agreed to periodic cashouts of 50-100 per week but that I couldn't quit in makeup, I cashed out even less than that and played way longer than I wanted to with you because of that

I asked you immediately after BF if you could treat it as an interest loan until I played poker again, you refused, I asked if I could transfer makeup if I found a new backer, you refused, I asked you 3 years later if I could use you as a reference for a backer and I'd pay the 900+interest, you refused

so you've refused all remedies because you want your witch hunt thread

I immediately envisioned this exact scenario at that moment. A big witch hunt thread with you and your drama

did you or did you not agree to periodic cashouts? if so how much?