I have been having a dispute with my old friend/backer about who's money it is for some months now. He refuses to have a meeting with me and is now refusing to mediate, although it was his idea to mediate in the first place a good few months ago. I will just lay out the facts and let you guys tell us who's money it is technically.

Facts: I entered a staking deal with no stop loss discussion u.pon entering the staking deal. I was told I can play $500 and $1000 sng's.
I played out the first stake with staker which was to make $50k profit and I would go on my own back. I made this is 3 weeks and everything went perfect. No problems.
I went back into another staking deal with him just weeks later after taking a downswing of my own roll.
The exact same conditions were in place other than 'no one can find out I am staked by him'
This was a political term put in place by myself as he was in a lower cartel to me, and didn't want to be seen as weak publically.
This stake didn't go so smooth and upon loosing ev I was asked not to war at $1k games. In this time I got sat by a reg and wrote to my staker live on Skype 'I will not war but I will rematch the 1st 2 as I won both' I then declined after the 2nd 2. I was here protecting our place in the 1k lobby and declined straight away. My staker didn't have a problem with this at the time.
I went on a bit of a downswing and went into make up. I was in make up for$7790.
I was then asked to put a $50k stop loss on the stake. On entering the stake it was clear to me there was no stop loss and felt it was a way of my staker controlling me and infiltrating my cartel having me move down as he wished if times got a bit hard. I said I was happy with the original deal with no stop loss but promised him I would move down stakes and would never screw him over if things got bad, we could work as a team and talk about anything a long the way and always take the most optimal line for both of us involved. I stopped playing until we had come to an agreement that we were both happy with.
The next thing I heard from him was:

Hey mate the thought of going completely life busto through staking someone at $500 hypers without a stop loss scares the **** out of me so I wanna get out. I got an opportunity to invest some money with Euro Pacific capital that I want to do aswell so I might stop the staking and do that instead. As it currently stands there is:


$14 039.46 in the account
Milestone bonus: 557 180 vpps = ($3600 x 0.5578) = $2058

fpp balance 69487: ($1600 x 0.6949) = $1112

= $3170 in pro rata rakeback


= $17210 in account




which means there is $7790 of makeup.



I think the best solution that is going to be win win win for everyone is to give this deal to jackstack, I am sure he will pay me the full value of the makeup since the deal is you make me approx 23k and the only way you dont make me that is if you turn into a losing player which is obviously ridiculous. so from jackstacks perspectives its legit just handing him 23k so he wins, i win cause I break even, and you win because you stay on the same staking deal. it makes a lot more sense since I cant handle the swings up there at those stakes and jackstack can, so the 23k should be his, not mine. obviously i really appreciate you giving me the opportunity first, but i think its best to end it now when there's hardly any makeup and no big issues and a solution that works for everyone.

As it was a private staking deal I declined this as an option to sell me on as it was in our terms and conditions not to ever let anyone know I was being staked.

He emailed me this:
Ryan obviously after that last email of yours we cannot do business together anymore. Can you please send me the remaining money in your account from the stake immediately which we calculated in a previous email to be $17 210

I sent the above amount and the make up money as I felt like I had let someone down but realised after I was stupid to send the make up money and when asking for it back he refused to do so saying it was his money rightfully and I owed it to him and we have been in a dispute ever since.

The only thing I want to know is.
Had I not sent him back the make up money, who's money would it have been?

If everything you say is fully true then his taking the money is outright theft. Staking isn't a loan and especially when he is the one ending it.

Is There a contract?

No official contract. I actually trusted this guy a lot. Why I sent him the money, I didn't think he would do me wrong and felt I was doing him wrong until every reg I spoke to about it told me I had been robbed.

he didn't even ask for the last $7.xk of makeup and is in NO way entitled to it, while I do think he should probably have the option to sell you as a horse and you shouldn't really have much of a say in it (assuming the conditions don't change for you at all it shouldn't matter much where the $ comes from, I mean jackstack could just send him the $ and he send it to you and you'd never know), but anyways, he should send you back the makeup IMMEDIATELY, if he does not that is hugely scummy imho and he is basically scamming you for money you sent him. He ABSOLUTELY should send this $ back



edit: I actually misread who put that condition in place, he should NOT be able to sell you once you had set the condition that nobody can find out you're staked, so you're actually in the right here on all counts

+1

he should send the $ back..

Thanks for your input guys. Hopefully he can realise that is was never his money.

For the record I never outed this man, I spoke to people in A and B references. People didn't even know I was part of it so they couldn't have any biases. I also didn't want these people to know I was staked at the time.

This.

+1

I made a mistake, I didn't even reject his stop loss. I said 'let's speak about it soon as I am waiting on a new computer to come'

Also an update. He says he will mediate and was always going to. I mistook his 'I can't until the wars over' for 'never going to mediate' only as we all know war never ends in heads up hypers. I voiced this to him and he didn't respond to me. But apparently he now has to make a new plan as I posted this but I have to wait 3 days now. Will update the thread in 3days.

good to hear some positive news on this Ryan, I agree with the masses, if the backer ends the stake then the MU is non refundable,, Im pretty sure you will find quite a lot of staking deals also work like this

+1

I apologise for the late response, I’m the backer in this story and I was travelling and didn't have access to our older convos and felt it was important to have exact details of our story. As some of the details he provided were not accurate, I wanted to make sure I was accurate when I responded.

When I starting staking Moca the first time, he appeared to be a solidly +EV pre-rb player. Between the start of the first stake and the issues with the second stake, there was starting to be more battling, and I was losing a lot of confidence in his ability to be a +EV player at the games he was playing. This was later verified as his EV numbers were not very good and he was moved down from the $500s to the $300s. Here are the facts of this case:

He came to me for staking the second time on 22nd April 2014. Although we didn't have black and white rules for when he had to stop battling regs at $300s-$500s, PT4 has always been a good tool to help determine how HUSNG players are doing. When I staked with MTTs, we have much more black and white rules. With HUSNGs, usually it is fairly obvious when you should at least start to consider stopping playing certain people or buyin levels.

It was a deal amongst friends and not many terms were discussed. However one term was that he was unable to rematch regs if sat at 1ks. We were very clear on this. He broke this term.
In his post he has written:

... This is not true. Not warring at 1ks was a clear term of the original agreement.

He also wrote:
Again this is not true. He did not tell me live he told me after the fact and he played 6 games not 3 and was in clear violation of our original agreement. In this case a few games is fairly minor, but I wanted to correct a spot where he wasn’t telling the truth. However, he did battle SwanRonson at $1ks for 54 games on the stake and did not tell me.

We were good friends. We knew each other outside of poker. He was always very clear that he was not looking to move up to higher stakes and not looking to battle regs. Although that obviously happens in HUSNG regardless of whether or not you plan to, there are certainly differences between guys that battle more often or less often. He was very clear that he was on the 'less often' side.

On top of that, as he was starting to battle more, I would occasionally watch his tables when he was battling regs and didn't feel good about how he was playing. That is how this entire topic even came into my head.

When I asked for PT4 reports, he wasn't able to provide them for quite some time (seemed odd), and later when I did see his updated results, he had been beaten up vs the guys he had battled the most (granted, not huge samples).

This is where I felt I made my biggest mistake. Due to our friendship, rather than saying to him, 'I feel that you aren't necessarily +ev against some of the guys you are battling against', I just asked for a black and white rule of when he'd move down/stop battling.

I wanted it to be a discussion, not a demand, and initially threw out the number of $50k. As he was never going to be battling $1ks vs regs, that would work out to be 100 buy-ins. He said that if times got tough he would "work with me" but unfortunately he would not commit to a tangible figure and no mutual agreement could be reached.

At this point, I wanted to discuss selling his makeup to someone else and having them finish out the deal. I admit that our deal was set up to be private. In a normal situation, it would be very easy for me to have posted on my skype status that I had a $500 cartel member with a deal I was looking to get rid of.

When I mentioned to him the possibility of someone else buying his makeup, I did not at all intend anything of the sort. I told him I had one specific high-stakes player that I felt would have taken over the deal and still kept the staking confidential. I understand that he had the right to refuse that, but it certainly was not a situation where I had mentioned posting on 2+2 or publicly about our staking arrangement.

I told him that I didn’t think it was fair that I couldn’t discuss the deal privately with *anyone* and we couldn’t discuss a stop/loss. At this point, he offered to buy himself out of makeup at a 15% discount on the makeup.

He sent over my remaining funds in his account and the makeup payment. At this point, we ended on a very friendly note.

Approximately 3 weeks later he contacted me again. He told me that he had discussed some of the details with others in the community and that I should have not been entitled to any money and I needed to send the funds back immediately.

Despite the fact that I was fairly confused that he had contacted others about our staking deal, (If he didn’t feel the need for the deal to be private, why couldn’t I ask someone to buy out the makeup?), I offered to go to mediation. I offered to take it to a panel of 3 people we could agree upon and then go with their judgement.

He refused. He told me to send over the money immediately, and when I refused, he started sitting my games.

At first I avoided playing him regularly. After a short while, I felt I had an edge against him and in turn, I started sitting him regularly. (At this point, we have 2,199 games where he has a -3% ev and I have a +0.2% ev vs each other).
Around 5 weeks ago he contacted me again and told me that he now wanted to do mediation for the money he had sent me via makeup. Please note, this was 10 months since the initial offer.

I was busy travelling over the next few weeks and I was also in the middle of the big battles at the $1ks and told him I would look back over the details once I had more time. I told him this would probably be in a month. When the month came up, I had ended up travelling longer than expected and told him I needed more time. To be fair, I was not making this a high priority, but as he had waited 10 months, I didn’t feel the need to deal with this immediately.

Shortly after this, he made the initial post here. And in regards to his statement of:

We were in dispute almost a year ago. We certainly haven’t been “in dispute… for some months now”.


In summary:

We had a very informal deal together. After watching him play some I got worried about the deal being so informal and wanted to make it more black and white. He didn’t want to. After refusing to let me discuss it with any other backers due to an earlier agreed upon privacy, he agreed to buy out his makeup and the rest of the staking deal.

3 weeks later he changed his mind and wanted the money he had paid towards makeup back. He refused mediation and decided to sit me. After 10 months of battling on and off, he decided he wanted to do mediation which I am no longer interested in.

Campbell can you just post the logs of this part:

"I told him that I didn’t think it was fair that I couldn’t discuss the deal privately with *anyone* and we couldn’t discuss a stop/loss. At this point, he offered to buy himself out of makeup at a 15% discount on the makeup."


I think that would pretty much clear everything up for everybody assuming there are logs for it

Let's clear up a couple of irrelevant points to this case.

I am very sure I only played 4 games vs valuelol not 6. I did also say it to him live, he was not online and I declined the second 2 for that reason.

I played SwanRonson with his support, I was beating him pretty bad, and he loved me playing him.

I never agreed to buyout makeup I will send all emails to prove it. I did give him the option of me buying at a good rate possibly 50% but he never accepted it and we clearly see he ended the deal with out me buying out.

I sent the money after the end of the deal as I was manipulated into thinking I done something wrong. He even told me I wouldn't allow him a stop loss which by evidence I said I will talk about it when I get my computer fixed as was emailing of my iPhone.

I think it's clear from what he is saying, he didn't think I was a winning player anymore and wanted out of the deal.

I wrongly gave him the money and wanted it back and am fighting non stop for it back and he won't give it back. It's money that should never have been his. I hope one day he does do the right thing and give it back.

Thank you Alan for coming public. I tried to protect your name for your sake but cool that you came clear and clean to why you wanted out of the stake.

I truly hope you see what is black and white to everyone else in the world of poker and staking.

I will attach now all the emails leading up to the end of the deal and then 2 after the deal was ended by himself.

On 22 June 2014 04:33, Alan McMaster <alan@ke%$%%er.com> wrote:


Hey mate,



I was wanting to put a few more details into our deal for if the worst case scenario happens. We didn't discuss the notion of a stop loss etc and also what would happen in the scenario that I voluntarily leave the stake which was really dumb of me. I was thinking to make it as follows:




- If at any time I leave the stake voluntarily then the makeup is forgiven
- If you lose 50k while on the stake you can either move down to 300s where I will keep staking you, or you can have the option to move to a different stake where the 50k makeup can be paid off from your profit chops on the new stake.




I know this case probably wont happen but I feel that we should talk about it now and get stuff sorted out before hand just in case so that there are no issues between us. Does the above sound fair to you?




Cheers,

Alan



On 23 Jun 2014, at 16:18, "Alan McMaster" <alan@ke$$^^£er.com> wrote:





Hey moca I was just reflecting on this last email and was thinking in the case that something unexpected comes up where I need money and dont have the funds to stake you anymore it is pretty harsh to lose the entire makeup - can we talk about what would happen in the scenario where I need funds and cant stake you anymore and you are in makeup at that time and i want to end the stake? let me know your thoughts. better to get everything sorted for all scenarios before hand



cheers,

Alan

ryan o'donnell <ryant%%T%$%.co.uk> wrote:



We can talk about it soon, I'm just waiting on delivery of my new computer n will be back at it and grinding again, don't be so stressed, I am like so confident in the situation the way it's set up, it ur this un easy with it u can pull out when I get even again cus I don't want to be around negativity towards my future when I'm confident I have all my lines covered at the moment n the opponents are gonna be so much easier in the future, 3%roi at 500is just months away if not sooner. But we can have a Skype and stuff and ima be on that video ASAP and other things if u wanna be more involved. Don't be nervous though bro. I'll let u know when PC arrives,




Ryan

Sent from my iPhone


From: alan@$Y%RtRR.com
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:29:33 +0800
Subject: Re: Staking deal
To: ryantipse%%^%.co.uk





Hey all good man, only nervous because I just realised we hadn't covered all bases on the deal before starting it. Basically the question I want to know the answer to is:

If I want to end the deal while you are in makeup (e.g. if i run out of liquid money) what happens then?




I feel its an important question we need to answer that I never thought about (stupidly) until now. Once I know what the go is there then the nervousness goes away since I have all the information/there is certainty. Right now I have no idea what would happen in that scenario which is where the nervousness is stemming from.




Hope you are settling in well mate, and you are right about the 500s environment it seems like stuff is getting settled now and people are starting to print. Things are starting to heat up a bit in the 300s we got a few triers now.




Cheers,

Alan

On 24 June 2014 23:18, ryan o'donnell <ryanti^%$^^$%uk> wrote:



well what I do with Milan and is how I feel staking kind of goes between friends from my perspective any ways, is you take a risk and in return you get a % if u go busto that's not on me same as if I stake Milan and I went busto?? I take the risk. If I didn't want to stake him any more I couldn't just push him onto someone especially if he only took the deal with the knowledge it would be kept between them. I can imagine you want a lot more from me, my computer order still didn't come, I rang them and it will be here tomorrow 12-5pm. I wont play again until everything is 100 in our deal.

From: alan%^$^$%.com
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2014 04:37:58 +0800
Subject: Re: Staking deal
To: ryantipse@hotmail.co.uk


Hey mate the thought of going completely life busto through staking someone at $500 hypers without a stop loss scares the **** out of me so I wanna get out. I got an opportunity to invest some money with Euro Pacific capital that I want to do aswell so I might stop the staking and do that instead. As it currently stands there is:


$14 039.46 in the account
Milestone bonus: 557 180 vpps = ($3600 x 0.5578) = $2058

fpp balance 69487: ($1600 x 0.6949) = $1112

= $3170 in pro rata rakeback


= $17210 in account




which means there is $7790 of makeup.




I think the best solution that is going to be win win win for everyone is to give this deal to jackstack, I am sure he will pay me the full value of the makeup since the deal is you make me approx 23k and the only way you dont make me that is if you turn into a losing player which is obviously ridiculous. so from jackstacks perspectives its legit just handing him 23k so he wins, i win cause I break even, and you win because you stay on the same staking deal. it makes a lot more sense since I cant handle the swings up there at those stakes and jackstack can, so the 23k should be his, not mine. obviously i really appreciate you giving me the opportunity first, but i think its best to end it now when theres hardly any makeup and no big issues and a solution that works for everyone.

On 25 June 2014 19:34, ryan o'donnell <ryant%$%$%.co.uk> wrote:



k well it gets to that weird awkward spot when 2 friends done a thing and 1 wants out. I am overly happy to stake myself as I have a very large life roll still, doesn't feel risky, just wanted to get a property but I will just back myself I guess. the only problem is why should I pay out make up when 1) I was happier to continue in the already agreed deal. but also because lifetime I am not in make up to u so would feel like i'm just taking all the bad variance n you got to ride the nice upswing last time. let me know what to do now


On 25 Jun 2014, at 13:04, "Alan McMaster" <ala^%$^%$r.com> wrote:





Hey mate as described in the last email I think its best that we give this deal to jackstack as it works better for everyone involved.


Look at it from my perspective, if I let you walk from the makeup and you stake yourself then I lose $7790 on this deal. If I sell this very attractive deal to any other staker I can receive $7790. 8k is a lot of money to walk away from. I would never expect any of my friends to walk away from 8k for me.


I completely understand I made money in the last deal but that money wasn't for free, there was risk involved, and the fact that it paid off is great but it can't be considered a factor in this deal.

On 28 June 2014 01:08, ryan o'donnell <ryanti^%^%^%6.co.uk> wrote:



Bro I am not getting staked by jackstack, no chance, your asking for a lot more from me when I'm not actually asking for anything from u, I have the money to play but only took a staking deal because was with u and didn't feel like any stress and was looking for a house to buy to rent. The markets gone soooo **** now so I have liquid funds for the next couple of years it seems so like getting into a staking deal with jackstack isn't appealing to me right at this present moment. I finally got a phone so I can email still no computer delivery cancelled because my phone was off and now they said I have to pick it up myself. Long!





Ryan


Sent from my iPhone

On 27 Jun 2014, at 21:20, "Alan McMaster" <alan^%%^^%%^.com> wrote:





hey mate you are actually asking quite a bit from me you are asking me to give you 8k (i think?). The market value of the makeup is 8k (or at least very close to that), because other stakers will pay me that for the deal, and the reason they will pay it is because the only way its not worth that is if you are no longer a winning poker player (which is obv not the case). I was not the one who came to you for staking man you asked me as a friend to which I agreed and we didn't talk about all the details regarding stop losses, I offered you 50k which I thought was very reasonable. Once you said there was no stop loss it turned out to be something I did not want to be involved in. and now I want to get out and receive the market value of the makeup you are currently in. It seems you want to buy out of the makeup yourself but instead of paying $7790 like another staker would, you want to buy it from me for $0? If you have liquid funds again it makes no sense for you to be staked by anyone and you shouldn't be staked by either me or jackstack anyway, but it is unfair to give me $0 for something that is worth $7790 you can see that right?

On 28 June 2014 06:55, ryan o'donnell <rya%^%^^%.co.uk> wrote:



Ok I'll buy it off you but not at the value dead on, just because it's really random change to my lifestyle choices and dramatically have to shift money around and some days taking it extra chill and the extra stress added to life. But it was a political staking deal between me and you, you never spoke about stop losses and we had it all nice n solid IMO between us, u got nervous like every1 does and backed out is all cus it got real the numbers, those numbers are standard n such small numbers vs high range variance games, but give me a decent deal n I'll buy it off you if you don't mind.

Sent from my iPhone

On 28 Jun 2014, at 00:23, "Alan McMaster" <alan%^%^%^^%.com> wrote:





hey so obviously i am happy to sell it to you but again i really dont feel like i am in the wrong here, you came to me for staking we did not discuss a stoploss and i only found out later that you offered me a deal with zero stoploss and zero control over the stakes you play if you go on a prolonged downswing which is a deal that i would not have agreed to had we discussed it. That is a deal that is unheard of in the poker industry, it actually incentivizes the player to lose more to force the backer out. Now, the value of the makeup if sold to another backer is $7790 and I want to get out of the deal that was not super clear to begin with. I am happy to get a second opinion on this but I feel I can get from others the full $7790 which is why I don't feel a discount is warranted. That being said, I want the minimum hassle possible here and to end this in a friendly manner. What sort of discount are you expecting? If it is a very small amount then I might agree and get it sorted out just between us since we are friends and I want us both to be satisfied (or at least, not completely dissatisfied) with the outcome of this situation.
Also, out of interest, what sort of stoploss did you have in mind if not 50k?


On 28 June 2014 09:53, ryan o'donnell <ryan%%^^^%co.uk> wrote:



Guess your more knowledged as per usual on 'the standards in poker' but in my world when one man says to another 'do you wanna make 20% on my future earnings so I can invest my money elsewhere but because you have a smaller political roll and we (in my eyes brothers) have bigger plans to make money between us because I felt you were the more liquid of the two we could do business together, it was more of a brothers thing than some gamble you have with a horse. The stop loss wasn't ever in my eyes a problem as I said before when we made the deal it felt liquid investable money was something you were keen on, spesh ones in an industry you know and believe in and by a player you believe in. Maybe we weren't on the same page but that's perspective, I'm not breaking anything we discussed here, I would understand if I wanted to pull out, but your the one pulling out here bro so please don't treat me like someone trying to get a way with some make up when it's really effecting me way more than you.


Sent from my iPhone

On 28 Jun 2014, at 03:34, "Alan McMaster" <alan@%%%^^%%^%.com> wrote:





I understand - none of us are breaking anything that had been discussed, its what was not discussed that was the issue and the reason why I want out. With a zero stoploss I am just so happy and relieved that have discussed this now when the makeup is (relatively) small and the situation can be resolved very easy. It would have been a much worse situation if we arrived at this discussion if you were super deep in makeup. I am not treating you like you are trying to "get away" with some makeup. I want to get the best price for the makeup I own. I think I can get $7790 selling it to jackstack and am very happy to do this. What can I get selling it to you?

On 28 Jun 2014, at 12:55, "Alan McMaster" <alan@%%$%r.com> wrote:





Mate, I offered you a 50k stoploss which I thought was very reasonable. The only reason i am backing out is that you said there should be no stoploss (which is unheard of). Do you think chadders had a stop loss? (of course he did!) Do you think he has to pay back the 200k he lost through poker to madamadadane? (yes he does and is!).



I own $7790 worth of makeup that should be paid back to me over time unless you quit poker or continue to go on a downswing and never come back from it. The only reason the market rate for this is close to 100% is because its such an attractive deal that a lot of people would be willing to take. Would you consider paying 85%? That way this **** gets sorted, I will still feel comfortable with it, and I will not have to go around asking other backers what they would pay for it. Even this being the case, just so you know, I still feel like I am taking a $1200 usd hit because of our friendship, but I am willing to do that to be able to put the whole thing behind us.

On 28 June 2014 22:31, ryan o'donnell <ryantipse%$^%%^^%.co.uk> wrote:



Lmao, this is actually a joke, you can either continue staking me or take the entire loss now cus I was happy the way we had it. U never mentioned stop losses, I don't have one on Milan, never had one on Roco or leon, never even used one ever before. Like u got greedy though. U coulda took the 50% now what I am saying is I'm happy to continue under the original deal and re discuss when I'm out of make up or when u decide to back out. Because I was happy with the way it was. If u have a problem with not having come up with some stop loss I have never used before then that's not my fault. Neways it's a shame u didn't wanna split the loss, it was over kind of me. I really don't know what world some1 gets staked, makes profit and staker over happy, takes a downswing and not only does backer want to back out but he wants his risk back as well.

Sent from my iPhone


On 28 Jun 2014, at 16:28, "Alan McMaster" <alan@$$%$$%%$.com> wrote:







Ryan obviously after that last email of yours we cannot do business together anymore. Can you please send me the remaining money in your account from the stake immediately which we calculated in a previous email to be $17 210)


On 29 June 2014 01:09, ryan o'donnell <ryan%$%%$%co.uk> wrote:



I have sent $3,500 and will make a final transfer in 2 days of $3,646.50 not so nice doing business but thanks for the intentions being clean and hope you see mine were always too but just guess 50k n move on to some1 else is just weird for me n would have come around to an agreement had we skyped n added tone to the convo but guess you wanted out a bit also. I wanted it to be me n u flipping some papes as brothers and if hard times comes we pull together and figure out optimal from that point. Neways it's all good on the misunderstanding I have in business in general but like I just deal with people I have that brotherly bond that we got each other through hard n good, I haven't been playing any sessions more out of respect for ur money more than anything *edit* and balancing life n will add in more seriously when I do other than slap dash in the past, but it's good for me to be on my own bankroll with my head this settled. Guess weird timing and **** situation with laptops and phones *edit*, cus I'm trying to start a new life aswel. Neways maybe a drink to squash the tension when u hit London. Peace n gl as always gee
Sent from my


On 28 Jun 2014, at 18:26, "Alan McMaster" <alan$$"$$£$"$r.com> wrote:





Mate, thank you so much. I am so sorry I wasn't rolled for what you wanted and didn't realise it until later. I am really happy you have liquid funds and are staking yourself and taking 100% of your own profits. You are a sick grinder and will make a ****ton. Please send my love to *edit* and I cant wait to share a drink with you in London. Please lets never ever speak about this again. When we are older and ******ed baller we will look back and laugh at this

END OF EMAILS!!!

It's only when I re read these through I see how badly I was manipulated into believing I had done something wrong and even had me believing I wouldn't give him stop loss. If this is anything but manipulation then please can you give reasoning to why it isn't manipulation.

I think the key point to note is:

'- If at any time I leave the stake voluntarily then the makeup is forgiven' On 22 June 2014 04:33, Alan McMaster

He confirms in his argument above and also when trying to sell me to jackstack that he wanted out of the deal!

All logs are attached!

I think these are one of those times where everyone tells me, "Wilson, stfu." Since I will not be doing that I guess I will start off by saying I have respect for you both.

I skimmed through both parties' first posts and I don't find many points relevant there. Mainly that past, current and future(current now) performance have anything to do with the situation at hand.

Since you both have a very different version of how events transpired I will keep most of my opinions to myself until more proof is provided.

I do want to dispel one myth however. chadders0 never lost 200k for me. It was nowhere near that number. Did we have a stop loss in place? Definitely, but it was agreed upon prior to the stake. If he agreed to the stake under the assumption there was no stop loss and I wanted to include one afterwards; I'm sure he would not be happy. It is a natural reaction.

Is he required to grind off makeup? Of course, provided I am willing to continue staking him. Am I allowed to ask for 100% buyout of Makeup? Hell, yeah! But chadders0 does not have to agree.

-M@D@M@D@D@ne

Buildingsweaters: 'Since you both have a very different version of how events transpired I will keep most of my opinions to myself until more proof is provided.'

well the evidence is all in the email logs leading up to the end of the stake that I posted. These are 100% of communication logs between the two parties from the beginning of him speaking about 'what happens if I go busto?' to the end of the deal when he says 'send me back the remaining money.'

They clearly say the option of me buying out was off the table due to his greed.
They clearly show he ended the deal only asking for the remaining money.
They clearly show I sent the money out of stupidity and thinking I had made a mistake in business and had wronged the other party (a friend).

I would like that returned to me as I was wrong in that decision and think it's only right for the other party to return something that should never have been his.

And, that’s what I did. And, he sent an amount we agreed to that was less than 100%. After he sent it, he later asked for it back. I offered mediation. He refused mediation. He decided to sit me instead.

He now wants mediation several months later.

It could be up for debate whether or not he should have agreed to pay off his makeup at a discount vs telling me, "no chance". That’s not the discussion though, or at least it shouldn’t be.

The question should be:

If someone in the horse/backer relationship makes an agreement they later regret, where is the line of when and how they can take back that decision?

I agree that if they try to take back their decision there is a reasonable amount of time where they can expect mediation on the topic. Again, I offered medation on this topic. I don't think it is reasonable that someone rejects mediation and then many months later wants to backtrack, and take up mediation afterall.

[QUOTE=Campbell-Gee;46993715]And, that’s what I did. And, he sent an amount we agreed to that was less than 100%. After he sent it, he later asked for it back. I offered mediation. He refused mediation. He decided to sit me instead. QUOTE]

Well this is not true, re read the emails I never agreed on buying out. I wrongly sent you the money after thinking I done you wrong some how. After realising it was wrong of me to send the money I have been a long time asking for it back, I didn't want it mediated at the time for 2 main reasons; we were friends imo, thought we could sort it out but secondly I didn't want people to know I was staked by you, I didn't want it public at the time hence why I had it in the agreement to keep it between us. It is only since my political situation changed so dramatically that allowed me to become vocal about it and that clause,put in by myself, wasn't relevant anymore. It now allows the option of mediation to take place. I also strongly believe that time doesn't change the situation in any way. We are talking about who should have that money by what is fair and correct in the world of poker and staking poker players. Time doesn't change anything about the person who's money it is.

Please send it back Alan. I sent it being a good friend thinking I wronged you in some way. Please see that I wouldn't have kept something that wasn't mine in the fact when I had even a small thought that I wronged you I sent you the money. I ask nicely for you return that same good will and good person we all in this community try to hold up between each other and do what is correct and return the money to it's rightful owner.

Moca comes across like a proper geezer in his posts. Big up.

should have clearly defined terms for situations like this but in general as a default i would say.... make up should be sale-able (given the new staker gives the same staking conditions, obviously if he wants to sell your mu you shouldn't have to move down in stakes as a direct result of that, etc)

since OP seems heavily against that then him buying the entire mu himself at a small discount (this is based on me acknowledging/agreeing that 7k mu should be worth quite close to that amount in these games given OP is a winner at them/in cartels/etc). so actually i would say OP buying it at 85% is pretty reasonable, maybe a bit less if the staker is the one who pushed for the deal to end rather than it being closer to OP or mutual

No one is saying that it isn't reasonable to ask, but what happened is the backer agrees to end the deal anyways with out any buy out after all discussions were had on the buying out matter. Then I sent the money 100% in good will not wanting to let down a friend. Don't you agree it should be sent back when I ask for the good will money to be sent back realising I actually didn't feel so good about sending my money to him? Surely it's just robbery if this money is kept? The backer never earned that money, and was not entitled to that money, a friend sent it to him after being made to believe he had let him down and only for that reason.

Alan again I would like to ask politely can I have that good will money back. It's been a long time and a lot of stress trying to get it back. I understand you may have believed I bought out, but the fact of the matter is I sent it after the deal was ended as a good will between friends and asked very soon after for it back, I would like my money returned to me as soon as possible now it's clear to you.