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Small Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of small stakes MTT strategy

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Old 05-05-2017, 09:13 AM   #1
LektorAJ
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Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

I would always have answered "T8s, clearly" to the above question, but I came across some calculations I did 4 years ago about how often hand hit flops hard (defined as top pair or better, 10 outs or better) and found the following:

Both hands hit:
Quads or FH 0.10 % of the time (all numbers below are %),
Trips 1.35
2 Pair 2.02
Top pair of 8s with a higher kicker (Q or 8) both 4.22
Flush 0.84
Flush Draw+2 over cards 1.38

The differences are

Top Pair with an 8 kicker
Q8s 9.64
T8s 5.79

Straight
Q8s 0.33
T8s 0.98

OESD+Pair other than top pair
Q8s 0.00
T8s 0.73

OESD+FD
Q8s 0.00
T8s 0.73

ISD+FD (ISD = inside straight draw aka gutshot)
Q8s 1.10
T8s 1.47

WeakPair+FD
Q8s 1.55
T8s 1.55 (I suspect there is a mistake here as both hands get the same number of pairs, with Q8s more top pairs, so it should be easier for T8s to make a non op pair though it shouldn't change the numbers much. Possibly it is set up to count only a top pair with a higher kicker as a strong pair in which case we are double counting TP 8 kicker when it has a FD.)

Flush draw + 1 over card
Q8s 3.58
T8s 0.87

Q8s Total 26.11
T8s Total 22.04

What do you all think about this? Have I messed up the calculations somewhere?
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:53 AM   #2
Leia Amidala
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

If your asking wether i rather have q8s vs t8s when im in the bb facing a b raise the answer is yes.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:35 AM   #3
LektorAJ
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

Obviously in a direct matchup Q8s has more equity than T8s as it dominates it.

What I mean though, is that Q8s hits top pair no-kicker a more often than T8s, and it also flops FD + 1 over a lot more.

It's true that T8s flops more OESDs though.
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:09 PM   #4
Leia Amidala
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

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Originally Posted by LektorAJ View Post
Obviously in a direct matchup Q8s has more equity than T8s as it dominates it.

What I mean though, is that Q8s hits top pair no-kicker a more often than T8s, and it also flops FD + 1 over a lot more.

It's true that T8s flops more OESDs though.
yeah i got that (didnt meant a direct lineup, but facing a 50% button open)
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Old 05-07-2017, 03:25 PM   #5
Captain-Hindsight
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

raising to steal i'll take the T8 b/c the straight outs are more valuable to semi bluff. I'd rather shove the queen tho.
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Old 05-15-2017, 08:27 PM   #6
oldskool87
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

what id think about here is my stack size. deep stacked cash or just deep stacked in general id take 108s.but with shorter stack sizes in sngs or mtts id be more keen on Q8s where i can stack off with top pair or raise and stack off with FD etcc
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Old 05-16-2017, 01:41 AM   #7
LektorAJ
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

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Originally Posted by oldskool87 View Post
what id think about here is my stack size. deep stacked cash or just deep stacked in general id take 108s.but with shorter stack sizes in sngs or mtts id be more keen on Q8s where i can stack off with top pair or raise and stack off with FD etcc
Yes, I agree stack sizes are important. The reason for going for 11 outs or better was to get the kind of stack you're ok to put all your chips in with when there aren't that many, rather than worry too much about avoiding the 2nd nuts.

It's maybe for another thread but I'm a bit sceptical about some of the "you need X when you are super deep" stuff too. You can always limit them to 3 streets of value if you have 2nd/3rd nuts. But i agree 100BB plays differently to 25BB.
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:56 AM   #8
Leia Amidala
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

also i like T8s more as a 3bet hand and Q8s more as a flatting hand. So if i have a reshove stack i prefer to have T8s in the blinds vs LP opener. >30bb i much more prefer to flat with Q8s.
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Old 05-31-2017, 11:29 PM   #9
Nxia
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

I'm getting slightly different figures using flopzilla. I might be misinterpreting your end figures though. Did you do the calculations by hand?
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Old 06-01-2017, 01:29 AM   #10
LektorAJ
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Re: Would we rather have Q8s or T8s?

Done in Excel back in summer 2013 so it might be wrong but I can still look at the formulae.

Which ones come out differently?
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