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tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ?

02-27-2019 , 08:06 AM
NLH FT table / 5 left / I have the 2nd stack

Winamax - 15000/30000 NL (7 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (BTN): 19.09 BB
SB: 44.58 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 12.77, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)
BB: 13.35 BB (VPIP: 28.87, PFR: 11.35, 3Bet Preflop: 10.87, Hands: 144)
UTG: 17.29 BB (VPIP: 21.97, PFR: 13.60, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 135)
CO: 13.69 BB (VPIP: 23.29, PFR: 16.90, 3Bet Preflop: 16.00, Hands: 76)

5 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.17 BB) Hero has Jd Qs
fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.1 BB, SB calls 1.6 BB, fold

Flop : (5.87 BB, 2 players) Js 2h Tc
SB checks, Hero bets 2.5 BB, SB calls 2.5 BB

Turn : (10.87 BB, 2 players) 2s
SB checks, Hero bets 5 BB, SB calls 5 BB

River : (20.87 BB, 2 players) 6s
SB bets 13.91 BB, fold

SB wins 34.78 BB

Even if SB never 3bets (3Bet Pre = 0 in HUD), we can exclude from his calling range: 99+, AJ+

Flop : JT2 his calling range: 22 JT Jx Tx A2s (made hands) K9s Q9s 98s A2s (draws)
Turn : 2s his calling range: we can remove JT which x/raises flop and A2s which x/raises turn given the very drawy board.
remain: 22 Jx Tx Ks9s 9s8s (Qs9s not possible because I block Qs)
River : 6s his all-in bet range : values 22 Ks9s 9s8s / bluffs AsT (blocker max spade) and maybe KsJ and KsT (2nd blocker max spade)
so only 3 value combos vs 3 to 7 bluff combos (3 AsT + maybe 2 KsJ + 2 KsT)

With these river odds, should I have called ?
Anyway I folded given the ICM pressure (3 lesser stacks prior to the hand) and also the fit or fold profile of the opponent. But I have a lot of doubts ....
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 10:33 AM
I think the turn is the place to focus your attention on: you've made a pot committing bet in a situation where you ought to be minded to try and keep the pot small due to the ICM pressure. Even though it lets him draw out on you sometimes I think it is still preferable to check instead and then re-evaluate on the river with 15bb where you'll often get a chance to bluff catch/ realise showdown value

I also think you underestimate how wide his ranges can be through this hand, he has a massive chip lead and even though OOP can apply massive ICM pressure so he will often be getting out of line
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 12:01 PM
Barrel turn is std usually but SB being pretty tight pot control seems decent (has to be close). As played I would often f*uck-call river because 3 to 1 and he has air in his range, but people playing 14/12 don't go for weird river bluffs too often, I'm inclined to believe him.
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 01:22 PM
Super ambitious line bro
Check back flop like 99% of the time
From what hands do you think get value betting flop and turn? He is a standard TAG flatting from SB ( 22+ ; AJ+ KJs, KQs and some suited aces and suited connectors)
As played you don't have a clue what to do, so it seems the mistake was made earlier
Question. How do you think your flop and turn bets modify villain's calling range?
I don't think a TAG is gonna lead bluff river, so fold river is good
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 04:42 PM
I like betting flop then checking turn for pot control.

Happy to check/call or bet/fold river.

too small sample to get truly judge by stats - also SB can put lots of pressure due to ICM

such as Q9/KQ/Asx etc

As played think we fold river
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 05:12 PM
Yeah let's check back a flop 99% of the time when we flop top pair and have 20 blinds and CL is like 40~ blind and we're in position....that sounds like a great way to accumulate chips in a tournament.

Also 14/12 isn't a tag that's pretty nitty stats. So not really worried about getting c/r I'd rather just bet the flop and be able to stab this type of flop a lot when we miss and IP.
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 06:36 PM
Like it.
Dumb river spot, I'd probably call
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 11:15 PM
Do ppl bluff river here? Looks like a situation where is proly underbluffing esp from the nit
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-27-2019 , 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer_kill
Yeah let's check back a flop 99% of the time when we flop top pair and have 20 blinds and CL is like 40~ blind and we're in position....that sounds like a great way to accumulate chips in a tournament.

Also 14/12 isn't a tag that's pretty nitty stats. So not really worried about getting c/r I'd rather just bet the flop and be able to stab this type of flop a lot when we miss and IP.
First, it's FT and Hero is playing under ICM pressure.
Second, there isnt a worse Jx in villains range, so you are thin value betting against Tx, underpairs and draws. Your fold equity is none , he can float you light and make your life miserable on later streets

Keep barreling bro keep barreling
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-28-2019 , 12:20 AM
Why do we need fold equity and where did I say we have to barrel turn? You're advocating to check one of the best flops we can get when we're IP and thinking villain is gonna reverse float when we're 20 blinds effective is literally absurd. Again you're clueless as you keep mentioning singular hands and not how our RANGE does. Our RANGE wants to be able to bet this flop a lot, we are able to do that by betting our TP hands and sometimes checking AA perhaps.

Also you talk of what value we're getting from Tx etc. Like yes Tx and draws will call. You then fail to account for the fact we can just win the pot and antes and that's a pretty significant win as well. Which is a 30% increase to our stack but sure man you pass up those increases for "icm" when you're barely ahead of the other stacks.
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-28-2019 , 02:12 AM
Very weird hand. River is actually very close. I'd def check turn tho. He really doesn't have that many bluffs here at all, I think I would have to fold river vs an unknown. 89 spades or A2 are the most likely hands here.

Last edited by Colin_Piddle; 02-28-2019 at 02:18 AM.
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-28-2019 , 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer_kill
Why do we need fold equity and where did I say we have to barrel turn? You're advocating to check one of the best flops we can get when we're IP and thinking villain is gonna reverse float when we're 20 blinds effective is literally absurd. Again you're clueless as you keep mentioning singular hands and not how our RANGE does. Our RANGE wants to be able to bet this flop a lot, we are able to do that by betting our TP hands and sometimes checking AA perhaps.

Also, you talk of what value we're getting from Tx etc. Like yes Tx and draws will call. You then fail to account for the fact we can just win the pot and antes and that's a pretty significant win as well. Which is a 30% increase to our stack but sure man you pass up those increases for "icm" when you're barely ahead of the other stacks.
Why you need fold equity? Really? You say you want to stab this flop when you miss a lot, but, he is gonna float like 90℅ of his range. Why in hell you want to try to bluff a range that is not gonna fold...
If you really think that you have to bet all your TP every time, it a very common leak of low stake a players. You don't even think in ranges
Even with a tight BTN opening range, you will miss a lot this flop. THINK!!! When your range has more air than value bets you want to check all of your range to protect it from floats ( or use big sizing to polarize yourself). And more in an FT with little ICM pressure
Check back flop, call any turn or fire when he checks. River decide if he leads or check back IP. This line prevents you from getting buffed , keep the pot small with a marginal TP ,protect your range and its cheaper than the line taken

In low stakes its always better go explotative but in FT is when you want to deploy all your GTO lines and use the ICM in your favour, because most villains are bad at this stages

If you check back turn like you say, will you call a river overbet from V? Something like 12-15bb
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-28-2019 , 11:34 AM
+1 to cb and turn check, we should never be getting x3 streets here this far up in our range, proly needs AJ+ for this.. maybe KJ if we had reads and we were up against a wider range like bb def but v is the tightest on the table here and there is some icm implications.

Good we have Q here to block outs if v has straight draw 98 and being rainbow flop its fine to check back as we don't need to deny equity as much esp seeing we have the spade blocker ott.

Last edited by wowsooooted; 02-28-2019 at 11:50 AM.
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-28-2019 , 11:41 AM
Oh you're talking about in general and not just this hand that was confusing.

Anyways you're a moron and thought maybe you'd be less of a moron but it seems not so you're going back on ignore.

HUE HE WONT CALL Tx BUT WE HAVE NO FOLD EQUITY HUE honestly just shut the **** up you're literally giving awful advice.
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote
02-28-2019 , 11:45 AM
You get no value betting top pair from worse hands but also have no fold equity somehow. That's really interesting and I hope people trying to learn read how contradictory that is honestly.

Sure we can check our tp sometimes but we primarily should be betting this cause as I said we increase our stack 30% if "we never get worse to call" and if they call that tight then we can abuse them taking small stabs in position.
tricky hand in NLH FT / did I lack courage to call ? Quote

      
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