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Small Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of small stakes MTT strategy

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Old 10-08-2017, 03:17 PM   #1
Darth_Maul
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Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

Another early hand from a 6-max turbo fast tourney on 888.

888 Poker - 30/60 Ante 6 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 72.35 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
Hero (SB): 83.7 BB
BB: 78.83 BB (VPIP: 26.76, PFR: 22.86, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 72)
UTG: 121.95 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
MP: 32.85 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
CO: 53.78 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)

6 players post ante of 0.1 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.1 BB) Hero has J J

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.6 BB, 2 players) 6 4 8
Hero bets 3.3 BB, BB raises to 13.2 BB, Hero ???
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Old 10-08-2017, 03:31 PM   #2
daviid
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

id start with a call.
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Old 10-09-2017, 03:31 AM   #3
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

^ yes far too strong to fold yet BvB . The tough decision is on the next street.
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:19 AM   #4
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

yaaaas
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Old 10-09-2017, 11:36 AM   #5
Darth_Maul
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

In that case...

888 Poker - 30/60 Ante 6 NL (6 max) FAST - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 72.35 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
Hero (SB): 83.7 BB
BB: 78.83 BB (VPIP: 26.76, PFR: 22.86, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 72)
UTG: 121.95 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 1)
MP: 32.85 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
CO: 53.78 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)

6 players post ante of 0.1 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.1 BB) Hero has J J

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.6 BB, 2 players) 6 4 8
Hero bets 3.3 BB, BB raises to 13.2 BB, Hero calls 9.9 BB

Turn: (33 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero checks, BB bets 17.5 BB, Hero ???
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:39 PM   #6
julien.roy
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

At this point this obviously sucks, but we are heads up with an overpair, there is still 10X 7X that can continue on this board as a bluff, specificaly 10X of clubs. Lets not forget 7's might almost always be good here so will 10's.

You have to call turn and re-evaluate river. most likely a call unless the 7 of clubs comes on the river.

I think Jacks specifically on this board is more of a call than kings or queens.
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Old 10-09-2017, 04:07 PM   #7
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by julien.roy View Post
At this point this obviously sucks, but we are heads up with an overpair, there is still 10X 7X that can continue on this board as a bluff, specificaly 10X of clubs. Lets not forget 7's might almost always be good here so will 10's.
You think villain is raising the flop with Tx/7x?

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Old 10-09-2017, 05:24 PM   #8
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
You think villain is raising the flop with Tx/7x?

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I think QTcc, KTcc, 10Jcc, are all valid candidate to put in your bluff range (we do block this). It depends what is villains frequency blind vs blind.

Think of it this way, villain needs bluff to 3barrel with in order to balance his value if hes playing good poker, so yeah 10X or 7X with 2 clubs definitely fits the bill here.
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:40 PM   #9
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by julien.roy View Post
I think QTcc, KTcc, 10Jcc, are all valid candidate to put in your bluff range (we do block this). It depends what is villains frequency blind vs blind.

Think of it this way, villain needs bluff to 3barrel with in order to balance his value if hes playing good poker, so yeah 10X or 7X with 2 clubs definitely fits the bill here.
This is a micro stakes MTT on 888, you're giving villain way too much credit if you think he knows anything about balancing his range.

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Old 10-09-2017, 05:50 PM   #10
julien.roy
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
This is a micro stakes MTT on 888, you're giving villain way too much credit if you think he knows anything about balancing his range.

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So he could be spazzing out with any 2 then. Still JJ way too strong HU to fold.

He also could think hes valuing with 8X, 9X
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:42 PM   #11
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
This is a micro stakes MTT on 888, you're giving villain way too much credit if you think he knows anything about balancing his range.

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this reasoning comes up super frequently from you when someone analyzes a spot pretty well and i dont get it. obv if you can exploit someone to the max because you know his tendencies perfectly well and you can say with 100% certainty that people never bluff in this spot then its not worth discussing, just go with your perfect reads. however you most likely do not have such rock solid info on anyone so you have to do the work of assigning people ranges (value- as well as bluffranges), see what price you are getting and make a decision on what parts of your range you want to take which action with. i guess poker is pretty easy when you can just go the white magic route every single time and herofold tons of hands because "people at micros dont know about ranges and how to properly balance them" but thats an absurdly dangerous guessing game that's just not based on logic or math.

the stakes couldn't actually matter less.
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Old 10-10-2017, 07:52 AM   #12
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

I would call the flop and turn, hopefully our stickiness should show strength and slow him down somewhat and he might xb river fearing he will get hero'd and give up if hes bluffing or taking whatever sdv he has. Any 5x or 7x hands may take this line flop / turn, esp w backdoor potential so I think folding these streets is a mistake.

I think the real decision here is on the river not the flop or turn. If he bet river, personally I would only call if I had loose reads and fold to readless or nits. In my experience population will usually underbluff 3 barrels with air, once they have seen all five community cards they will default to giving up if they didn't make their hand or get us to fold, the exception to this is loose players obv. I only play non turbos tho, so im unsure what adjustments to make when the structure is faster

Last edited by wowsooooted; 10-10-2017 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 10-10-2017, 08:29 AM   #13
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by daviid View Post
this reasoning comes up super frequently from you when someone analyzes a spot pretty well and i dont get it. obv if you can exploit someone to the max because you know his tendencies perfectly well and you can say with 100% certainty that people never bluff in this spot then its not worth discussing, just go with your perfect reads. however you most likely do not have such rock solid info on anyone so you have to do the work of assigning people ranges (value- as well as bluffranges), see what price you are getting and make a decision on what parts of your range you want to take which action with. i guess poker is pretty easy when you can just go the white magic route every single time and herofold tons of hands because "people at micros dont know about ranges and how to properly balance them" but thats an absurdly dangerous guessing game that's just not based on logic or math.

the stakes couldn't actually matter less.
Well that was uncalled for.

Of course the stakes matter. If you don't have a specific read on an opponent, you have to make some assumptions about the type of player you're playing against. The typical player in this tourney doesn't understand range balancing, so giving him credit for balancing his range and making decisions accordingly is a mistake. I recently came across a quote from a poker author that you should never think more than one level above where your opponent is thinking. If you are, you're over-thinking the game.

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Old 10-10-2017, 08:44 AM   #14
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
Well that was uncalled for.

Of course the stakes matter. If you don't have a specific read on an opponent, you have to make some assumptions about the type of player you're playing against. The typical player in this tourney doesn't understand range balancing, so giving him credit for balancing his range and making decisions accordingly is a mistake. I recently came across a quote from a poker author that you should never think more than one level above where your opponent is thinking. If you are, you're over-thinking the game.

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if the stakes did actually matter how high would they have to be for you then in order to give people credit for playing "reasonable" then? online 50s? live 10ks? if someone plays a 80 abi online with high volume but constantly drops 10k/month does he qualify as a reasonable player? how about someone who playes a 10 abi and makes 3k/month? i dont want to sound rude and i apologize if you take this the wrong way. i just want to prevent you from playing a guessing game rather than having a fundamentally strong one. also famous quotes are cool but poker is a game where you have to solve mathematical problems with every single decision that you make so im afraid that such quotes help less than crunching numbers in the lab.
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:01 AM   #15
Darth_Maul
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by daviid View Post
if the stakes did actually matter how high would they have to be for you then in order to give people credit for playing "reasonable" then? online 50s? live 10ks? if someone plays a 80 abi online with high volume but constantly drops 10k/month does he qualify as a reasonable player? how about someone who playes a 10 abi and makes 3k/month? i dont want to sound rude and i apologize if you take this the wrong way. i just want to prevent you from playing a guessing game rather than having a fundamentally strong one. also famous quotes are cool but poker is a game where you have to solve mathematical problems with every single decision that you make so im afraid that such quotes help less than crunching numbers in the lab.
Sigh.

If you assume that players in a $1 online MTT are thinking about the game as deeply as you are, you're the one making a mistake.

When you "crunch your numbers in a lab" you have to use information to generate your numbers. That's how you generate ranges that allow you to do the calculations. If you don't have sufficient information about a specific player, you have to make some assumptions. And experience factors into those assumptions. For example, players on 888 are generally more passive than on Stars so I adapt my play accordingly. The simple fact is it is more profitable to assume the average opponent in a $1 online MTT is playing the game at level 0 or 1 than it is to assume they are at level 2 or 3 and thinking about range balancing.

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Old 10-10-2017, 11:24 AM   #16
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
Sigh.

If you assume that players in a $1 online MTT are thinking about the game as deeply as you are, you're the one making a mistake.

When you "crunch your numbers in a lab" you have to use information to generate your numbers. That's how you generate ranges that allow you to do the calculations. If you don't have sufficient information about a specific player, you have to make some assumptions. And experience factors into those assumptions. For example, players on 888 are generally more passive than on Stars so I adapt my play accordingly. The simple fact is it is more profitable to assume the average opponent in a $1 online MTT is playing the game at level 0 or 1 than it is to assume they are at level 2 or 3 and thinking about range balancing.

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ok cool glgl
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:40 AM   #17
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
This is a micro stakes MTT on 888, you're giving villain way too much credit if you think he knows anything about balancing his range.

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You know, you are a villain playing a micro stake MTT to other heros out there
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:57 AM   #18
Darth_Maul
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

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Originally Posted by princekuh1o View Post
You know, you are a villain playing a micro stake MTT to other heros out there
You are correct, so I can take advantage of the fact that they might assume I play like they do.

In field of 500 runners in a $1 MTT, how many of them do you think work on their games as hard as we do? I know there aren't 500 people engaging in hand discussions on this forum. Sure some of them might pick up a book or two, maybe watch some YouTube videos, or try to pick up some tricks they see on TV. But I guarantee you that's as far as it goes for most of them. Most of them are stuck at level 0 thinking about their own cards.

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Old 10-10-2017, 01:23 PM   #19
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

Unfortunately the discussion of the hand got derailed. We actually do have some info on villain here: he's pretty aggressive, running 27/23/4 through 72 hands. So he could be defending fairly wide and raising the flop wide to try to take it down. I know I would if in were in the BB here. I think the mistake I made in this hand was not giving enough consideration to the fact that it was BvB and both our ranges are going to be wide here. I've discovered BvB seems to be a leak in my game.

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Old 10-12-2017, 03:13 AM   #20
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Re: Sticky postflop spot w/ JJ overpair

Lmao the stakes don't matter? Ok bud...I'm sure randoms in 1's/5's/20's/50's and 500's all have the same ranges for us to figure our equity against and have the same frequencies. Prob just surrender the turn.
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