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Old 02-16-2007, 01:18 PM   #1
shaundeeb
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Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Alright been trying to figure out a way to write this well,with enough helpful information for anyone who's looking to either add in 180s to their MTT daily routine or switch to them from SNGs or cash games.


Alright here are just same basic reasons why you should play 180:

A Volume, you can't beat the frequency these tourneys run during the peak hours you can get 2-3 at the 10 and 20 level while 5-6 at the 4 level

B Time commitment, I would guesstimate the time till the end of a 180 to be an avg around 3 hours 20min which is 2-3 times shorter than your avg tourney with 15min blind levels.

C Payouts, They pay 10% but it is very top heavy 10-18th get double the buyin while 1st gets 54 times the buyin.

D Preparation, The good thing about the 180s field size being capped at such a low number is you get to be invovled many endgame situations. That means when you start getting to the FT of 5fig+ for first tourneys you won't be such a beginner at that stage.

E. The players, You get such a wide range of players that you get much stronger as a player against the spectrum of fish as well as mtt experts. This will help a player learn how to adjust to table conditions as often you are moving tables and needed to readjust and reconnect with the flow of the table

F. Cost, you can't really beat 180s for their low buyins which are great for anyone trying to build up a roll and with the 3 different levels as well as the increasingly popular 50/90s you can grind out a nice roll very quickly to move on to bigger tourneys

Alright now for some strategy tips I will try to hit most of the important moves and ideas behind each move you make. I would recommend that if you don't have pokertracker and pahud to go and get them since some advice I give you you need that for the information. Also, one thing I like to do is every time the blind levels change to try to figure out where you want to be stack wise etc by the next level. So I will break this down by blind levels for 180s.

Level 1 10/20
Now, everyone stars with 75bbs don't be shy with your strong hands a big mistake I see people make is open raising 5-6x with 10s or AQo etc hands that are most likely to be best PF but are rarely hands you are very confident post flop with. I would advise making some over limps with SCs small pairs etc, this is the only stage where it's not a big mistake to be passing PF. Most likely the players you will be playing many pots against are the fish and weaker players since many of the better players are prob multitabling and thus folding a lot of marginal hands. So seize this great time to take chips off those who will give them up easily. I am not afraid of big pots on any hand because remember it's a 180 and another one prob is 1/3rd of the way registered.

Stack goal 2000

Level 2 15/30
Alright now you should be noticing whose been limping half the hands and prob dwindled theirs tack down to 800 and those at 1450 who haven't played a hand yet. Use that knowledge when playing hands notice what type of opp you are against and adjust. Pay attention to stack sizes too when you are against 1 of those weak players bleeding chips as you should be trying to do they prob have less chips so be keen on that when you are getting to the turn and the pot has eclipsed their stack.

Stack goal 3000

Level 3 25/50
Alright now like 1/4th of the field is gone and it's going to get tougher but hopefully you were able to win lots of small pots by raising the weak limpers and c-betting or got lucky to stack someone. Players aren't as deep anymore and expect a few of the tight players to open up a little more at this level. There still will be plenty of spots to take a flop vs one of the weak players who hopefully doubled up like you so you can be 60bb deep with him and hopefully win a monster pot. Be warry a lot of PF 3bets start to commit people. Also notice the stack sizes to your left

Stack goal 3500

Level 4 50/100

Alright this is when it starts to switch to less postflop play and more raise/shoving so adjust your PF opening range to hands that do better with short stacks AIPF. Again I echo look at stack sizes when you raise 3x which should be your standard open with no limpers ask yourself what do you do if player X shoves or if he raises half his stack etc. Ask yourself those questions before you raise. It may help you make a better decision if it's worth it to try to steal from that position. Also, around this level you prob will be down to half the field in a 4 and 10 and prob 100 left in a 20.

Stack goal 4000 and a 5min break to focus on other tourneys

Level 5 75/150
2nd hour now things are def starting to kick in gear hopefully you are slightly above avg stack right now as it gives you more breathing room as for next 15min you will battle those nits who've folded their way down to 600 chips. The only postflop play you should be apart off is when you raise and someone calls you. Most of your pots for now on you should be the aggressor makes it much more effective. Also, don't be afraid to shove your stack in there if a squeeze appears or someone won't leave your BB alone. Don't shy from races at this stage they are necessary in tourneys even in these middle stages

Stack goal 4500

Level 6 100/200
This is actually my favorite level in a 180 due to the fact most of the other regulars like to wait till antees kick in to start stealing and restealing a lot, so while they are waiting 15 more min I start to really have fun. The fields have thinned by now and the avg player left is much stronger but still plenty of soft spots by now you should have a good idea of each player at your table and with pt and pahud using that info and extrapolating your plans before going into a hand. As effective stakcs keep getting shorter the distance a hand goes until all the money gets in obv gets shorter most pots are taken down on the flop if you even see one.

Stack goal 5500

Level 7 100/200/25
Ante time a decent sized ante for an online tourney being 1/8th a bb so most pots are going to be 525 before cards are dealt. there will be plenty of sub 10bb stacks right now and you need to be careful when you open 3x you are getting odds against most players who are under 10bb to call their shove unless they have been really tight. I personally don't like to steal that much at this level as most players expect you too and they also will be stealing as well. So I would suggest restealing more from those multitabling regulars who open in LP when folded to them. Depending on how deep you are shoving and a 3bet are fine. It's also time to start defending your BB more. As most of you should know if it's folded to you in the SB you should be raising/shoving almost any 2 depending on effective stacks. That is the position I feel like I keep my stack afloat the most either restealing from a LP opener or stealing from the BB to get those coveted antes.

Stack goal 6000

Level 8 200/400/25

Alright this is the inflection point/level of a 180 everyone is forced into short stack mode as rarely will 2 people with more than 20bbs collide. There are prob 40-50 left so avg stack is under a M of 7 and also about half the stacks at the table will prob be under 10bbs. Knowing that you should often be shoving when first in even if you have 16bb stack if those to the left of you are under 10. Also remember to go by effective stacks not just yours or theirs. Restealing is harder at this blind level as very few people are deep enough to raise/fold. So expect your shoves to get called more as people are getting more desperate to double even if they have to take the worst of it.

Stack goal 8000

Break #2 getting very close to the money now start to figure out whose playing to win and whose playing to cash

Level 9 300/600/50
Alright now the field is getting short ITM bubble is approaching and the avg stack is around 15bbs but there probably is a gigantic stack hopefully yours so as with the previous level about half your table is under 10bbs make note of those who are short and why they got short. You should be stealing less from the guys whose short because he was aggressive and got caught stealing and/or make a resteal and got called. While stealing from the guy whose short who has been folding a lot even when folded to him in LP and is def waiting for solid hands to continue with only. Remember at this stage at a 9 handed table theres 1350 in the pot so try to take that down whenever you can where ever you are.

Stack goal 10000

Level 10 400/800/50
As the skill level of the avg 180 player is increasing like it is lately the bubble has been bursting later and later and I've noticed a lot lately this is the level where we get down to 20 people a lot. Remember when this happens your table is now 6-7 handed therefore your opening ranges even from UTG should be much wider. Also, notice that often what you are doing others at the table are trying to do as well so try to knock them down to where they aren't a formidable foe and you can easily call their shoves getting over 2 to 1 therefore they can't push as lightly since they know they have 0 FE. I always try to punish those I fear by attacking them and their stack because the shorter they are the easier/cheaper it is for me to take a shot to knock them out. Hopefully by the end of this level you are top 3 in chips and now down to final 2 tables and ITM.

stack goal 15000

Level 11 600/1200 75
Alright this is a bigger jump than most players realize now the game has truly become pushbotting when effective stacks under 10bb and there are very few flops seen where both players aren't all in. Since often with this level you are just ITM and prob playing 7-8 handed still don't be too aggro and give away chips now that people are in the money they are going to loosen up and go for first more likely than earlier. So tighten up while they loosen up.

Stack goal 20000

Level 12 800/1600/75
Alright this is often the blind level for Ft bubble your table will be 5 handed now with some decent sized stacks prob a few 25k stacks prob a 40k stack and a few 10k stacks. You should be opening any chance you can get unless getting restolen from a lot. You are trying to win these remember 54x the buyin for 1st place so every chance to pickup chips count.

stack goal 30000

Alright if you've made it this far hopefully you got some firepower to start working your way to the top. You have 5 min to get your gameplan for FT ready

Level 13 1000/2000/100
Notice at this level the blinds are large but the ante is just 1/10th a SB also be wary live and online of the antein relation to the BB it should effect how often you are opening. By now you are at the FT remember this is a constant bubble so abuse the middle stacks at all chances. You are there to win they are there to fight for 2nd. Remember you are most likely the best player at the table you have more weapons than anyone else.

Stack goal 50000

Level 14 1500/300/150
Alright this level I am going to use to give you some ways how to play a shortstack which often endgame you will end up having due to either a bad beat or a call getting proper odds. You should be restealing PF with 11-15bbs with decent hands depending on opener, when 7-10 stop and go is your most deadly weapon. Also when 20bbs you can do whats called a go and go where you raise about 30-40% of your stack PF OOP and stick the rest in on any flop.

Stack goal 75000

Level 15 2000/4000/200
Alright some tourneys are done by this level while others are still 2-3 handed this is where the most crucial point of your ROI comes from. The difference between a 1st and a 2nd is 18x the buyin so you are playing for more than some people realize in the spectrum of the buyin. Be aggressive 90% of the time neither of you have a real hand make him go on his heels whenever you can. Don't get too discouraged if you get this far and don't win because getting here is a goal in it's self and now that you've done it a few times your shorthanded and endgame will be much more solid as I alluded to earlier in the post for when you get to fts of tourneys with 10k+ for first.


Alright some other things about 180s what can be expected from them. They 180s do give good TLB scores I don't have the link off hand for a calculator it's a favorite on my other comp but I'll edit that in later. Off the top of my head a 4/180 gives 218, a 10 gives 255, and a 20 gives 309.


ROI numbers are asked a lot of what a good player should be making when I responded to that question 3 months ago my answer was quite different that what it is now because the avg player has improved but they still have many leaks and ways for you to abuse. I'd expect the top 2-3% of players could expect to make about 130% ROI in the 4/180s over a decent sample size. 110% for the 10/180s is what prob the top players could make though I'm sure if a mtt expert got into them they could easily hit 150-200 but thankfully they don't waste their time playing so low. As for 20s I'd say a good number of players are making 100% ROI. Now for a proper sample size I would say 250 at any level but obv the more the better judge even though some of your games may be from a time when they are softer.

Also, don't just rely in PAHUD if you notice something odd either a line or a betting pattern tell make a note of it so you will have it in the future. Part of the small fields of 180s is you see the same players often so they are prob taking notes on you so you should be doing the same.


Any other questions more specific comments you have about 180s ask and I will have a mod edit them into the original post. Remember this is a beginners guide to 180s this is just breaking the ice there is much more in depth thought at times during each hand but that is too complex to put into words most of the time.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:29 PM   #2
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

w/p
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:34 PM   #3
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

i dont play many 20 180s and dont plan to in the future, but this was a good read, v informative. ty for writing it.
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:44 PM   #4
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

good post. i went over one of your 10/180 wins and you seemed to be shoving with big hands 1010,AhKh which seemed to me like overshoving and you would only get called with a worst hand, but you got called by 66 and AQ and that resulted in having a MASSIVE stack.

ex. shaundeeb 2500 chips blinds 50/100 UTg calls 100, utg+1 calls 100 MP1 calls 100, shaundeeb has 1010, and shoves

Do you shove like this often or standard raise more often and why? BTW i like the overshove
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Old 02-16-2007, 01:46 PM   #5
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

excellent stuff Shaun... thanks!
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:18 PM   #6
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Thanks!!
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:35 PM   #7
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Shaun,

In the middle levels, approximately how many hands are you playing per level? I know this is a combination of good cards, good opportunities (coming in on the button with sc after several limpers), and outright bluffs. However, I find in the middle levels I'm not nearly active enough.

Your thoughts?
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Old 02-16-2007, 02:40 PM   #8
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

QUOTE

YOU TOO CAN ACHIEVE 50% ROI FOLLOWING MY SIMPLE HOW-TO GUIDE!

(private coaching available for $30/hr upon request)

UNQUOTE
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:02 PM   #9
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

nice

I had a 150% roi on the 4/180s for about 2 months, and then recently it seems I've either forgotten how to play, or got sucked out on too much. This was a nice read so hopefully I can apply it a bit easier to what I'm seeing and get to that point where I'm having a lot of success again.

Just last night I finished in 20th again (2nd time in the last five or so I've played, and I haven't hit ITM now for about 25 straight). I went back to figure it out, and determined that the big moment was when my table was down to about 8 on the table, with about 25 people or so left. Five stacks on the table were sitting with about 5k, while we had one bigger stack with 13k and another with 10k. One of the shorter stacks in mp limped in. I was sitting with QJo from the cutoff and also limped in. SB folded and it went to the bb (referred to as Villain), who raised all in. Both limpers folded and he took the pot. Villain in the next 10 min built his stack from 5k to about 17k just by raising preflop. There were that many low stacks including myself who just wanted to stay alive that we weren't willing to risk that many chips. He had a very good strategy and was raising about every hand or so. Unfortunetly I never resisted it against him until I had about 4k left and was given KK from mp. I expertly limped in, figuring that the villain would reraise and he did. I went all in for my remaining chips and he called, showing 99. KK held and I went up to about 9500 chips and villain is about 13k. Few hands later, I'm dealt A4 in the sb and villain limps in again ahead of me. My intuition told me to reraise all in, cause I didn't want villain taking down this pot post flop cause I knew if I didn't hit I wouldn't be betting. However, I just limped in, and the very short stack on the bb just smooth called. Flop came AJ7. I checked (another mistake) villain min bet and I called him and the bb folded. Turn was a blank. I checked, villain put in a 1800 raise and I just called again. By now I have about 4k left in my stack, and although I should have just went all in, I was dumb, cause I knew that there was no way I was folding it, even though there was 20 left in the tourney and at least 8 stacks lower than me at the time of the hand. River was an 8. Villain put me all in and I called him. He showed J8 and I was knocked out in 20th place.

Now, the part where I should have applied Shaun's themes were very apparent in just that very hand. First, I have an opponent playing 75% of the hands near the bubble, first going all in to get some chips and then successfully taking down the blinds every other hand at least. Second, while my starting hand isn't the greatest, I just took a big pot from villain, knocking down his stack, and if he doubles me up again I successfully put him as a definite short stack. More than likely he won't call another all in like that (although when talking to him after the hand he said that he would have called the allin preflop cause he had a Jack.. whatever). Third, I let myself get to that point where I had to push anything I had. This put me in some situations where I gained a bunch of chips when I shouldn't have had to (folded around to me twice on the button I pushed 94o and 27o once, and no one called). I also called a shorter stacks push with me in the bb for 1k more with A10 against their QJ and they hit on the flop. It also meant that if I would have started it a bit earlier, I probably wouldn't have had to sit there staring at hands like 74o for three straight orbits and been uncomfortable with my stack growing so short when the blinds and antees were taking 15% off of me every round.

I like the chip count goals. This should help since lately I have a tendency to get shorter stacked about the 3rd level or so, most of the time cause I've been playing tightish.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:11 PM   #10
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Awesome post Shaun, thank you. I play allot of these and have slowly been getting better, this is some good info.
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:12 PM   #11
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

you mind pming me or posting somewhere a hand history of one of your tourney wins so i can learn from it? or if you have some stuff on pokerxfactor can post some links?

thanks,
mets
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:12 PM   #12
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

thanks for writing, good guide

I like you you never mention starting hands etc. All betting strategy
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:34 PM   #13
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

nh
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Old 02-16-2007, 03:34 PM   #14
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Quote:
good post. i went over one of your 10/180 wins and you seemed to be shoving with big hands 1010,AhKh which seemed to me like overshoving and you would only get called with a worst hand, but you got called by 66 and AQ and that resulted in having a MASSIVE stack.

ex. shaundeeb 2500 chips blinds 50/100 UTg calls 100, utg+1 calls 100 MP1 calls 100, shaundeeb has 1010, and shoves

Do you shove like this often or standard raise more often and why? BTW i like the overshove
I think people often underestimate the value of adding 20% of their stack uncontested and second, the liklihood of getting a call from a dominated hand.
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:16 PM   #15
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

sticky
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Old 02-16-2007, 05:28 PM   #16
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

good post shaun.
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:08 PM   #17
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Great post.

Since you're playing in a smaller field, do you see the bankroll requirement for 180s being much less than the 100 x buyin that I see recommended elsewhere? Assume you can't reload and you are getting about half of the ROI's that you say are achievable (50%-60%).

Thanks,
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:58 PM   #18
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

valsuvic, thats variance, u hafta take that in stride and not let 25 tournies determine what you think. You need a much wider sample.
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Old 02-16-2007, 06:59 PM   #19
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

he didnt post hands cuz thats too detailed and could never be fully covered, great post shaun, u barely outlasted me in a little 10+1 turbo or normal MTT with like 800 the other day, was glad to see you at my table even tho u dont kno me cuz i know your style and was ready to pwn u
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:00 PM   #20
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

unfortunately with 16 left and in 3rd i pushed all in with QQ to AK of the 2nd place guy and went busto, woulda had a huge chip lead and a good shot at first tho so w/e, i'll win that pot next time
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:14 PM   #21
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/tour.../leader-board/
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Old 02-16-2007, 07:39 PM   #22
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

I shaundeeb ... but not in a gay way.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:24 PM   #23
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Quote:
good post. i went over one of your 10/180 wins and you seemed to be shoving with big hands 1010,AhKh which seemed to me like overshoving and you would only get called with a worst hand, but you got called by 66 and AQ and that resulted in having a MASSIVE stack.

ex. shaundeeb 2500 chips blinds 50/100 UTg calls 100, utg+1 calls 100 MP1 calls 100, shaundeeb has 1010, and shoves

Do you shove like this often or standard raise more often and why? BTW i like the overshove
Well one thing I try to do in 180s especially is never have my stack get shorter because of blinds. And that is a pot where I can raise to 600 PF and prob get 2 callers and like 90% of the time there will be an overcard and barely a PSB left. You need to look as the hand as a whole plan not just 1 street. Also, with my image from every other tourney I get called because I make the same move with 910s or 33.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:27 PM   #24
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Quote:
Shaun,

In the middle levels, approximately how many hands are you playing per level? I know this is a combination of good cards, good opportunities (coming in on the button with sc after several limpers), and outright bluffs. However, I find in the middle levels I'm not nearly active enough.

Your thoughts?
Really depends on the tables the middle levels are when the avg player knows he has to adjust, some tighten up and wait for prem hands other ones loosen up. You need to figure out whose doing what in the first 5-10min of that new level. Once you get to that point keep pushing your luck. As you get away with more steals your stack is growing and therefore they will fear going against you more. Also, you can call their shoves if you are getting a good price because it's a smaller % of your stack. And if you win the 40/60 now you have a loose but dominate image and people are afraid even if they go in with the best of it the luckbox CL will suckout.
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Old 02-16-2007, 08:28 PM   #25
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Re: Shaun\'s beginners guide to 180s

Quote:
you mind pming me or posting somewhere a hand history of one of your tourney wins so i can learn from it? or if you have some stuff on pokerxfactor can post some links?

thanks,
mets
there should be 2 in the HH thing posted by jurollo. I will try to find others I have posted or put up some new ones if I feel like I played well throughout a tourney.
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