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Small Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of small stakes MTT strategy

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Old 08-11-2011, 08:58 AM   #1
TeamTrousers
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ROI, Bankroll, Moving up, Variance and Downswings (containment thread)

Every week there are several threads started about ROIs, variance and downswings, bankroll requirements and when to move up, and the time is probably well past due to collect them all in one place

To start, here are some useful links


The 3r/180 "Should I rebuy/addon?" debate

NoahSd's look at MTT variance — Part 1
NoahSd's look at MTT variance — Part 2

Risk of ruin simulator


Also check out the sharkscope leaderboards for good ROIs in various SNGs, and OPR (Official Poker Rankings) might also be useful if you're playing/mixing 180mans and scheduled MTTs



Have fun, all future threads will be merged here

Last edited by TeamTrousers; 08-29-2013 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:10 PM   #2
ces_AAllin
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$3.50 - $7 SNGs ROI Question

Hi Guys,

Im from Perú, my best record was 10th in the last PokerStars.net LAPT Grand Final (Lima,Perú) and online this month im specializing on SNGs $7 - $3.50 (27 players) because have bad results in mtt´s this year. And this is my first post.

I wanna share a doubt, my SNGs ROI in last 30 days is 35% basically $3.50 - $7, is that a good ROI for that limit? What is the best ROI for that?

have 283 games in last 30 days, is that a good sample?

Than u very much to all.

Merry Christmas!


*http://pokerprolabs.com/topsharkpro?...&pnid=1&tt=sng

Please use last 30 days filter
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:58 PM   #3
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Re: $3.50 - $7 SNGs ROI Question

Most regs play 283 in 2 days time, so you can understand how much meaning this sample size has.

I think the 27man are regulars so 2K games will give you an idea of what you can expect.

How many tables do you play in these?
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:08 PM   #4
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Re: $3.50 - $7 SNGs ROI Question

Yes i know is a small sample, my problem are my business so i dont have much time to play. In my sessions play about 4-5 tables at the same time.

Darmaiad thanks for ur replay, i ll try to play more games and check again the ROi. Thanks!
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:28 PM   #5
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2.50$ 180 man

Hello guys What would you say ,which ROI is possible for a standard multitabling guy in these 2.50$ 180 man sngs?
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:33 PM   #6
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Re: 2.50$ 180 man

25%+ if you're decent
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Old 02-06-2013, 07:39 PM   #7
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Re: 2.50$ 180 man

i had 36% in the 2.20$ 180 man in the years 2009 and 2010.

i think i am a good winning player . i am thinking of getting back to them ,
did the gameplay of the final tables changed ? are there regs only on fts?
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:05 PM   #8
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Re: 2.50$ 180 man

All games are a lot harder than they were four years ago, even the micros. There are a lot more regs mutli-tabling these, and even the bad players mostly aren't quite as bad. There are now endless training sites and videos available, and while most people who view those are still never going to be crushing the games, even the worst coach will still fix a couple of the biggest leaks that used to give regs some of their edge.

That said, if you're near the best then 40-50% is probably still attainable at these, but someone who can play them that well is probably moving up quite quickly. Sharkscope/OPR some of the better players and see what they're managing to get to give yourself an idea of what's currently achievable.

Note that Stars have said they will be changing the payouts by the end of this week, to 27 paid instead of 18, and it remains to be seen how moving the bubbles that will affect possible ROIs, but the best regs will always adapt the most quickly. Good luck if you decide to try them.

Bad players still make FTs though
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:20 PM   #9
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$8 180 players and $3R+

Sorry guys,

I need some help in roll management, i search in the threads but i can't find any direct answer.

I pretend to play 4 hours a day, after my stupid work, 9 tabling 180 MTTSNG's. Initially mixing $8 180 players and $3R+ ,but i don't know my ideal bankroll to avoid bankrupt...

I'm a winning player in MTT (~3K games) and MTTSNG too but in these ones with a small sample of 400 games...
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:37 PM   #10
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

1.5 K is good
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:57 PM   #11
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

^^ what he said
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:48 PM   #12
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

1.5k ?
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:23 PM   #13
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiJoao View Post
but i don't know my ideal bankroll to avoid bankrupt...
I would normally recomend 500 buy ins to grind turbos 180s

Quote:
I'm a winning player in MTT (~3K games) and MTTSNG too but in these ones with a small sample of 400 games...
400 games its merly 3-4 sessions for a turbos 180s regular, not even close to a decent sample size, but since ur a winning MTT players i asume you have solid foundations about poker fundamentals

Quote:
9 tabling 180 MTTSNG's. Initially mixing $8 180 players and $3R+
What distribution? 5 of the $3r and 4 of the $8? Anyway im writing the math and you can later adjust it. Asuming you will be 9 tableling 5x of the $3r and 4x of the $8 we have...

5 x $11 = $55 ($3r have normally a $11 ABI)
4 x $8 = $32
Total = $87

Between 9 tables we have a ABI of $9.67 so 500 buy ins would be around $5,000 for a very healthy turbos 180s bankroll, this will help you go throught 200-300 buy ins downers, so common in these turbos 180s. FWIW, if you were playing also $15 i would add another $1k to the ideal bankroll but it depends a lot on how are you going to distribute the tables, cheers.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:25 PM   #14
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhisorzz1 View Post
1.5 K is good
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyJPowers View Post
^^ what he said
$1,500 BR with an estimated ABI of $9 its very aggresive BRM imo, thats even less than 200 buy ins
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:27 PM   #15
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

3k imo if you don't wanna reload.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:55 PM   #16
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

Ty for the support and all the answers.

Anyway, I made my first session grinding the $2.5 180 turbo to test the dynamics and all the stages and it was pretty sick, i'm running like ****. Made 42 sits, down 27 Buyins.

Gonna play these $2.5 one entire month in order to habituate myself on these MTTSNG dynamics.
Already figured that swings could be brutal in this type of game.

350/400 buy'ins seem fine to me, i'm not a grinder :-)
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:01 PM   #17
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

400 for the $2.50's seems a bit nitty, you will have 100 buy downswings for sure though
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:27 PM   #18
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

250 bi
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:32 AM   #19
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyJPowers View Post
400 for the $2.50's seems a bit nitty, you will have 100 buy downswings for sure though
Did you experience something like that already? I have a 5K ish sample, but I never really had a 100 BI downswing.., maybe 30-40 max..
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Old 02-19-2013, 09:40 AM   #20
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

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Did you experience something like that already? I have a 5K ish sample, but I never really had a 100 BI downswing.., maybe 30-40 max..
I just moved up to 3R after crushing the 2.5s with a 25% ROI over 1k+ games and am currently down 100BI over 100 games... Its terrible. Im doing much better in the 8s which is weird. Although I have ridiculous small samples in both stakes but just to say that 100BI is actually possible.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:49 AM   #21
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

definetly more than 100 BI's , I actually think you need 300 BIs for 180mans.

Im one of the best players on these on micro medium on stars and ive bustod 2 or 3 rolls of 100 BIs.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:49 AM   #22
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

25% ROI at the $2.50 over 1k games its not "crushing", not saying you´re not able to sustain it over a larger sample but think ur overestimating your results. And yes, im having the same issua as you regarding $3r and $8, running ridiculously better at the $8 than at the $3r, and trust me, 100 buy ins downers arent even considering variance, its just so damn common at these 180s, every single turbos 180s regular that plays at least 2,000 games a month on averga has at LEAST one 200 buy ins downer every month.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:54 AM   #23
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

Quote:
Originally Posted by stackmemaybe View Post
crushing .. 25% ROI


But wow suprguard by downswing we dont meen losingstreak oid? 30-40bi's is pretty darn solid if thats ur largest.
90-125 bi downswings are quite ocasional at 2.5s even when ur crushing them with 35+% roi.

Recommend 200bi's for 2.5s (e.g. $500); 200 abi for 3rs (e.g. ~2.4k) and 300 for 8s (e.g. $2,4k) if u play them without mixing in 2s.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:51 PM   #24
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

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Originally Posted by Sokz View Post


But wow suprguard by downswing we dont meen losingstreak oid? 30-40bi's is pretty darn solid if thats ur largest.
90-125 bi downswings are quite ocasional at 2.5s even when ur crushing them with 35+% roi.

Recommend 200bi's for 2.5s (e.g. $500); 200 abi for 3rs (e.g. ~2.4k) and 300 for 8s (e.g. $2,4k) if u play them without mixing in 2s.

what about 4.50$ 180man norm speeds??

as mentioned in other posts im a good player, but ive busted loads of 50/100 BI rolls on these.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:01 PM   #25
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Re: $8 180 players and $3R+

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokz View Post


Recommend 200bi's for 2.5s (e.g. $500); 200 abi for 3rs (e.g. ~2.4k) and 300 for 8s (e.g. $2,4k) if u play them without mixing in 2s.
I have a question in the relation abi/tables per session in the 3rs.
Example 1:: I play one session every day, 12 tabling, making 36 sits, with the 12$ ABI.

Example 2::
I play one session every day, 6 tabling, making 18 sits, with the 12$ ABI.

In a month i play a ~1k games and ~500 in the second example.
May we have a small bankroll for the 2nd cenario? If i play less tables my focus is higher...
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