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Small Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of small stakes MTT strategy

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Old 09-17-2017, 07:41 AM   #1
Vitamin
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Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

Hi everyone,


I would love for someone to clear up optimal 3-bet shoving for short stacks in mtt's for me since it has been confusing me lately.

So holdem resources calculator suggest that if we are playing 25bb's effective in a full ring mtt(let's pretend ICM isn't a factor) with 10% ante and open to 2bb with ~30% of hands from the lojack, the button should 3-bet shove top 15% of hands, does this range include bluffs? I thought that you should have strong hands and balance it out with weak hands. The range provided by holdemresources 3-bet range are only hands that are +ev . My goal is to have a optimal 3-betting range that is perfectly balanced between value/bluffs. I'm tired and can't think clearly, would love if someone could help me figure this out.


Peace
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Old 09-17-2017, 12:45 PM   #2
Vitamin
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

I noticed that I posted in the wrong section so if any admin sees this please move it to the strategy section. Thanks
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:18 PM   #3
rm81
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

You should have less bluffs when you are shoving preflop than in other situations it just is not going to be profitable.
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Old 09-20-2017, 12:24 AM   #4
Asjbaaaf
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

moved to small stakes MTT strategy.
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:10 AM   #5
oldgoat
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

You shouldn't be thinking of hands as being bluffs or not bluffs - each hand has two types of equity - fold equity and equity when called - fold equity is the same with any hand - so we play a range that has enough equity against the calling range to make it overall a +EV play. So we should be shoving an unpolarised range.
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Old 09-20-2017, 08:37 AM   #6
Darth_Maul
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
You shouldn't be thinking of hands as being bluffs or not bluffs - each hand has two types of equity - fold equity and equity when called - fold equity is the same with any hand - so we play a range that has enough equity against the calling range to make it overall a +EV play. So we should be shoving an unpolarised range.
Good answer.

The context is different if we're talking about 3-betting with deeper stacks. In that case you would want a more polarized range because of the risk of getting 4b and consideration of postflop playability. So with 80bb effective you might 3b a hand like 75s from the BTN but you would never 3b-shove 75s with 25bb.

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Old 09-20-2017, 10:50 AM   #7
Vitamin
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
You shouldn't be thinking of hands as being bluffs or not bluffs - each hand has two types of equity - fold equity and equity when called - fold equity is the same with any hand - so we play a range that has enough equity against the calling range to make it overall a +EV play. So we should be shoving an unpolarised range.
I like ur explanation, could u however please elaborate a little on
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
so we play a range that has enough equity against the calling range to make it overall a +EV play.
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Old 09-20-2017, 10:52 AM   #8
Vitamin
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
Good answer.

The context is different if we're talking about 3-betting with deeper stacks. In that case you would want a more polarized range because of the risk of getting 4b and consideration of postflop playability. So with 80bb effective you might 3b a hand like 75s from the BTN but you would never 3b-shove 75s with 25bb.

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Makes sense, thanks
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Old 10-07-2017, 08:35 AM   #9
xPISCIVOROUSx
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
You shouldn't be thinking of hands as being bluffs or not bluffs - each hand has two types of equity - fold equity and equity when called - fold equity is the same with any hand - so we play a range that has enough equity against the calling range to make it overall a +EV play. So we should be shoving an unpolarised range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitamin View Post
I like ur explanation, could u, however, please elaborate a little on
Each hand has the same fold equity because villains don't know what we are 3bet shoving with so our FE with AA or AK will be the same as with 72o but the reason we choose to 3bet with AK instead of 72o is that AK has a lot more showdown equity when called than 72o so at first you need to put yourself in villains position facing that same 3bet shove and work the pot odds and min equity you would need in order to make a +EV call and based on that you built your 3bet shoving range.
Nowadays there are a lot of softwares out there you can run sims with about these and many other preflop spots (and even postflop spots), i personally recommend ICMIzer especially for begginers.
You just have to practice and get better at setting up the correct villains opening and calling ranges and it will give you a 3bet shove range...


Last edited by xPISCIVOROUSx; 10-07-2017 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 10-07-2017, 12:03 PM   #10
nomalice
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
but you would never 3b-shove 75s with 25bb.
well that's very arguable statement, it can be very profitable 3b shoving 75s 25bb vs some (late) openers.
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Old 10-10-2017, 01:37 PM   #11
Vitamin
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Re: Optimal 3-bet shoving for shortstack play

Quote:
Originally Posted by xPISCIVOROUSx View Post
Each hand has the same fold equity because villains don't know what we are 3bet shoving with so our FE with AA or AK will be the same as with 72o but the reason we choose to 3bet with AK instead of 72o is that AK has a lot more showdown equity when called than 72o so at first you need to put yourself in villains position facing that same 3bet shove and work the pot odds and min equity you would need in order to make a +EV call and based on that you built your 3bet shoving range.
Nowadays there are a lot of softwares out there you can run sims with about these and many other preflop spots (and even postflop spots), i personally recommend ICMIzer especially for begginers.
You just have to practice and get better at setting up the correct villains opening and calling ranges and it will give you a 3bet shove range...

Thank you sir
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