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Old 02-23-2012, 06:05 AM   #151
Eldorian
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by tomsom87 View Post
I dont think your anywhere near close. If you want to go that way I would think low orbit needs to be <100, mid <1000 and high 1000+. If were gonna put some effort into getting the fish involved lets at least push them for 100 games.

I dont consider myself a 'Reg' and I could easily play 600 a month in my spare time.
Are you all serious? push a fish to AT LEAST 100 games a week? i think 20 is already pushing it, try singletabling for 2 hours and see how many games you get in... then multiply by 3 and you have an already very dedicated fish...

the BoP thresholds should be LOWERED to be attractive to fish, but it does not matter because any number always favours the mass grinders because they have more opportunity to get lucky...

leaderboards are not enticing recreational players, if anything they get them excited at first and then frustrated when they see what incredible feats they would have to achieve to even place...
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:22 AM   #152
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Are you all serious? push a fish to AT LEAST 100 games a week? i think 20 is already pushing it, try singletabling for 2 hours and see how many games you get in... then multiply by 3 and you have an already very dedicated fish...

the BoP thresholds should be LOWERED to be attractive to fish, but it does not matter because any number always favours the mass grinders because they have more opportunity to get lucky...

leaderboards are not enticing recreational players, if anything they get them excited at first and then frustrated when they see what incredible feats they would have to achieve to even place...
Either this or some kind of VIP level leaderboard type thing. Players that are bronze will be playing very few games. This will separate all player types pretty simply by how much they are playing. Leaderboard for bronze, silver, gold and platinum. Obv the bronze will have little money involved in it but like $50 for 1st is better than nothing i guess
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:27 AM   #153
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Either this or some kind of VIP level leaderboard type thing. Players that are bronze will be playing very few games. This will separate all player types pretty simply by how much they are playing. Leaderboard for bronze, silver, gold and platinum. Obv the bronze will have little money involved in it but like $50 for 1st is better than nothing i guess
this is amazingly simple and creative! love it, although i would think PS won't like it as it might make ppl stop playing so they do NOT move up...

maybe it should not be VIP level but average/total VPP over the last 12 months... therefore current volume will not influence it that much...
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:46 AM   #154
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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this is amazingly simple and creative! love it, although i would think PS won't like it as it might make ppl stop playing so they do NOT move up...

maybe it should not be VIP level but average/total VPP over the last 12 months... therefore current volume will not influence it that much...
Thing is that the only people i would see that are concerned about losing LB equity would be regs and thus they would be hitting decent volume anyways. The bulk of a regs profit will come from the tables so i think that if they were to stop playing to just win/place on a LB wouldn't be +EV for them. In contrast, i could definitely see a rec that normally plays 30 games a week thinking 'hang on, if i play a little bit more then i could cash on this'. It not only encourages people to play more but also people to hit higher VIP levels ie. rake more.

In addition, it separates players by ABI too as someone who plays $8s will struggle to stay a bronze star as they are likely to play over 240 games a month (unless they are a total rec). The big grinders will be encouraged to really grind much harder as they would have maybe like $2k up for grabs for top spot.

I just think that it seems a really simple way to split up regs and recs, ABI's and skill levels without having to implement a complex leaderboard.
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:33 PM   #155
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Either this or some kind of VIP level leaderboard type thing. Players that are bronze will be playing very few games. This will separate all player types pretty simply by how much they are playing. Leaderboard for bronze, silver, gold and platinum. Obv the bronze will have little money involved in it but like $50 for 1st is better than nothing i guess
great idea, could just separate it by what vip level they were at the end of the previous month
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:39 PM   #156
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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great idea, could just separate it by what vip level they were at the end of the previous month
+1 to that. But I'm not sure if it should be monthly or weekly. Monthly bronze level could be destroyed by a decent player coming back after a month away and shipping it with no problem. Maybe a system that will prevent this from happening perhaps :s or a weekly LB

imo should thrash this out and get it in place for a months trial in March
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Old 02-23-2012, 04:52 PM   #157
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

weekly would help that, also there will be thousands of bronzestars with a low number of tourneys qualifying. would need a lot of luck needed to win that leaderboard.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:35 AM   #158
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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BOP is weekly not monthly. I agree with your numbers for my own selfish advantage, but 100 games a week isn't fair on fish so there is no argument there at all.

The next level has to be the skill level because the unlimited or >1000 games level is going to reward the volumers only (most of the time) and 100 games still has too much luck involved, but 1000 games in a week for mid orbit is ridiculous.
Yeh I didnt realised that the leaderboards were a weekly thing. Just divide whatever I said by 4 and give or take some games, ill stand by that.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:40 AM   #159
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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they are the majority, think we have all forgotten how to play post-flop
There is POSTFLOP play??

On a more serious note: Of course those, who farm the SNGs want turbo to bring in more volume / h. Im just not sure if these the people who should be served most. IMO the games should serve those who love to play poker first, instead of those who want to generate money playing poker. (Not saying, that later dont want make money ofc, but the question is balancing toward volume ('farming') or actual play.

-> less turbo would slower the farming, and put the actual game into the focus.
IMO this is what should happen. Still unsure if the majority of players are farmers or pokerlovers though.

Last edited by Vrilya; 02-24-2012 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:54 AM   #160
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I'm sure the big-wigs at Stars completely agree with this and after your post will remove all turbos/hypers because all they care about is the pokerz and they already have plenty of money in this despicable culture of greed. Also, you're right, there's no skill in turbos and mass-tabling isn't a very difficult thing to get right either hence all players - serious or recreational - being break-even. Great post.

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Originally Posted by Vrilya View Post
There is POSTFLOP play??

On a more serious note: Of course those, who farm the SNGs want turbo to bring in more volume / h. Im just not sure if these the people who should be served most. IMO the games should serve those who love to play poker first, instead of those who want to generate money playing poker. (Not saying, that later dont want make money ofc, but the question is balancing toward volume ('farming') or actual play.

-> less turbo would slower the farming, and put the actual game into the focus.
IMO this is what should happen. Still unsure if the majority of players are farmers or pokerlovers though.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:22 AM   #161
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by Vrilya View Post
There is POSTFLOP play??

On a more serious note: Of course those, who farm the SNGs want turbo to bring in more volume / h. Im just not sure if these the people who should be served most. IMO the games should serve those who love to play poker first, instead of those who want to generate money playing poker. (Not saying, that later dont want make money ofc, but the question is balancing toward volume ('farming') or actual play.

-> less turbo would slower the farming, and put the actual game into the focus.
IMO this is what should happen. Still unsure if the majority of players are farmers or pokerlovers though.
OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread

Sometimes its better to keep quiet and have people think you're an idiot than express your views and confirm it.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:33 AM   #162
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by Vrilya View Post
There is POSTFLOP play??

On a more serious note: Of course those, who farm the SNGs want turbo to bring in more volume / h. Im just not sure if these the people who should be served most. IMO the games should serve those who love to play poker first, instead of those who want to generate money playing poker. (Not saying, that later dont want make money ofc, but the question is balancing toward volume ('farming') or actual play.

-> less turbo would slower the farming, and put the actual game into the focus.
IMO this is what should happen. Still unsure if the majority of players are farmers or pokerlovers though.
... the grinders follow the fish, the fish play hyperturbos... if lots of recs would play regspeeds nobody would cry for hypers...

(the other side of the coin, of course, is that the lower ROI of the netwithdrawer the better it is for stars...)
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:06 AM   #163
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Walmsley, can you put a NLO8 45 man turbo a test run? I believe that given the popularity of the 18 mans NLO8s and 45 man NLHoldem tournaments will make this one a success. While argument of the $1 45 man non-turbos not being popular enough to make this happen is fair, but the turbo structure changes things completely for most recreational players (who are usually short on time).

Would you be willing to put a $1.50, $3.50 and $7.00 version for a trial period to see how successful/unsuccessful they are? These games will surely affect the 18 man pool, but will also draw more players to the game as a whole with NLHoldem 45 mans giving this a shot.
A 45-man $3.50 turbo NLO8 is now available in the lobby. We'll see how this goes for a while and then look at the possibility of additional buy-ins.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:53 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by PS Walmsley View Post
A 45-man $3.50 turbo NLO8 is now available in the lobby. We'll see how this goes for a while and then look at the possibility of additional buy-ins.
Thanks again, really appreciate the quick replies + actions taken.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:21 AM   #165
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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+1 to that. But I'm not sure if it should be monthly or weekly. Monthly bronze level could be destroyed by a decent player coming back after a month away and shipping it with no problem. Maybe a system that will prevent this from happening perhaps :s or a weekly LB

imo should thrash this out and get it in place for a months trial in March
I like this idea but maybe it should be based on your highest VIP level achieved during the previous AND current month. So if you start the month as bronze and by the end have a gold status than you are considered for that leaderboard only.

Having said that, im not sure how the boards would look for the silver and gold status' as im not sure what volume of players are in those categories. Supposing this runs, I wouldnt mind taking a hit on the prizes for the leaderboards so the lower categories have bigger prizes (proportionally?). By having the big prizes for the bronze (and possibly silver leaderboards) it would encourage more competition between the fish for a decent reward and the grinders make the money from having more fish at the tables. Further, it would encourage the fish to try and make silver because there would be less competition for the prizes at that level.

This might be a horrible idea but just throwing it out there.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:10 PM   #166
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

There have been several requests for additional 180-man buy-ins.

I'll start with the idea of a higher buy-in regular speed. We currently have a $4.50 regular speed. In the past we had a couple of higher regular buy-ins so I looked at data from January and February 2011 to see how they performed. At the time, the $4.40 was comparable to the current $4.50 in terms of popularity. The next higher buy-in was $11, which ran far less often. In fact the $4.40 ran about 25x more often than the $11.

While we could deploy Sit & Gos that hardly ever run, as a principle we try to avoid that. This is because it can be frustrating for players, especially recreational players, to register for Sit & Gos that don't run, even after several hours of waiting.

The next option is a turbo to fit in the gap between the $2.50 and the $8.00 turbos. The issue in this case is that the hypothetical new turbo would clash with the $4.50 regular. While it is true that not many 180-man turbo players also play regular, a good proportion of the 180-man regular players do play turbos. A 180-man turbo in the region of $4.50 could draw sufficient traffic away from the $4.50 regular to significantly affect the liquidity of that tournament. Therefore, for the moment we won't be adding anything in this area.

Option three is a turbo 180 with a buy-in higher than the current $35. This might run during peak times but very infrequently at other times, which means it runs into the same issue of potentially frustrating players. On the other hand, the higher we move in terms of buy-in, the smaller the likely proportion of recreational players. Therefore we are trying a compromise option. This Sunday, a $60 turbo 180-man Sit & Go will be available all day. We’ll see how it performs and decide how to proceed on that basis.

Finally, several players have suggested a higher buy-in rebuy. I have looked at several scenarios for trying to make this work without causing problems elsewhere but so far I haven’t found one. Firstly, because of the nature of rebuys they have to be judged as a tournament with a higher buy-in than their face value and their potential liquidity estimated on that basis. If we assume that a new rebuy might fit somewhere between the $8 turbo and the $15 turbo, it probably should be judged on the same basis as the existing $35 in terms of likely liquidity. This view is reinforced by looking at the popularity of the $3.50 and how it compares to the popularity of existing turbo buy-ins. So the first question is, how likely is it that a rebuy in the $10-12 range might have sufficient liquidity to run?

The second question is where would the players come from? The likely answer is the $15 and $35 turbos and possibly the $8 turbo and perhaps some scheduled MTT players. The $35 in particular would be vulnerable to any reduction in the player pool and the $15 could be significantly affected as well. Looking at a lower rebuy, perhaps around $6, runs into similar problems with the $3.50 certainly being affected and the $8 and $15 turbos suffering liquidity issues. I’ve reluctantly concluded that there just isn’t a place to put such a tournament without looking at our entire 180 offering from scratch. I really don’t want to contemplate that when the 180s in general run very well. In a sense, the success of the 180s means that any argument to change them has to be very compelling indeed.
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #167
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

All sounds good, I personally think your over estimating the amount of pull one game has on another but I could be way wrong. There are many players who would never even consider playing a 4.50 reg speed but alot who would snap play a $20 imo
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:57 PM   #168
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

Very nice and thoughtfull post. Nice to have some insight in ur thoughtprocess Steve!

Well done!
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Old 02-24-2012, 12:58 PM   #169
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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This Sunday, a $60 turbo 180-man Sit & Go will be available all day. We’ll see how it performs and decide how to proceed on that basis.
great! please dont forget to add a $60/45 at the same time. thanks!
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:10 PM   #170
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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Originally Posted by PS Walmsley View Post
the success of the 180s means that any argument to change them has to be very compelling indeed.
I'm personally disappointed that you've decided against adding an $11 or $22 non-turbo as I'm sure the frustration factor for recreational players is reduced a lot by the fact that many of them only sign up when the thing looks likely to fill soon, but your overall reasoning seems sound and it's good to know you're taking the "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" line as a general policy.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:14 PM   #171
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

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All sounds good, I personally think your over estimating the amount of pull one game has on another but I could be way wrong. There are many players who would never even consider playing a 4.50 reg speed but alot who would snap play a $20 imo
How does this all "sound good"?
No higher rebuys, no rearranging the 180s, no word about the progress of introducing a leaderboard ( so complete opposite of good)

Thanks though Steve for your thought process. I understand the concerns but we cant make good proposals without the numbers obviously.
also i wouldnt only be looking for filling the gap between the 2,5s and 8 but maybe rearrange the complete buyin range.

Also +1 to you overvalueing the amount of pull one game has on another.
Still disagree with a higher rebuy of 7-9$ ruins the 35s and wont have as much traffic...

Also like the idea of a 60$ 180 (even tho out of my buyin range (: )
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:17 PM   #172
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by PS Walmsley View Post
There have been several requests for additional 180-man buy-ins.

I'll start with the idea of a higher buy-in regular speed. We currently have a $4.50 regular speed. In the past we had a couple of higher regular buy-ins so I looked at data from January and February 2011 to see how they performed. At the time, the $4.40 was comparable to the current $4.50 in terms of popularity. The next higher buy-in was $11, which ran far less often. In fact the $4.40 ran about 25x more often than the $11.

While we could deploy Sit & Gos that hardly ever run, as a principle we try to avoid that. This is because it can be frustrating for players, especially recreational players, to register for Sit & Gos that don't run, even after several hours of waiting.
^^
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$11 reg speed multi table tournaments that start when 180/240/360 players register and have an hour of late registration visible in the main lobby

..........

this isnt really a sng sugguestion per se, as what im sugguesting would not have the same intent as fulltilts fast filling 15 minutes of late reg on demand sngs, but rather to offer players the chance to build several more $11 mtts with $5000-$40000 prize pools throughout the day

this would i think be a good alternative to reintroducing $11 reg speed 180s as a way of offering low bi reg speed grinders an "outlet" to move up stakes and into multi table tournaments [with smaller average field sizes to reduce the variance they encounter as they do so]



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Originally Posted by 22riverrat22 View Post
and also, $8.80 cubed turbo versions of the above would be tits
vv?
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Finally, several players have suggested a higher buy-in rebuy. I have looked at several scenarios for trying to make this work without causing problems elsewhere but so far I haven’t found one. Firstly, because of the nature of rebuys they have to be judged as a tournament with a higher buy-in than their face value and their potential liquidity estimated on that basis. If we assume that a new rebuy might fit somewhere between the $8 turbo and the $15 turbo, it probably should be judged on the same basis as the existing $35 in terms of likely liquidity. This view is reinforced by looking at the popularity of the $3.50 and how it compares to the popularity of existing turbo buy-ins. So the first question is, how likely is it that a rebuy in the $10-12 range might have sufficient liquidity to run?
jw if this was kicked around on your end as another approach

the 11 "on demands" strike me as providing micro mtt grinders with a meat and potatoes core game to flesh out their sessions and fill voids between high value but huge field size [therefore very high variance] mtts and providing 4 180 grinders a natural bridge between $4 reg speed sngs and lowstakes XX,XXX player field mtts


the 8 cubed turbos would just be a really sexy addition for any turbo mtt/sng player and any rec player who likes lots of chips to splash around with early but doesnt want to play a 7 hour mtt and would offer deeper play much like the 3 rebuys do providing those players with a next step up to move towards

Last edited by 22riverrat22; 02-24-2012 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 01:25 PM   #173
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

Will the $60/180s be put in the main lobby? I think they will get a decent amount of new MTT traffic if so, if not then only sng regs and people reading this will know.
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Old 02-24-2012, 02:24 PM   #174
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

so now we've had the 180 man buyin review, please can we have a 45 man one?

reg speed 45's

$1, $5, $10

turbo 45's

$1.5, $3.5, $7, $15, $30, $60 for sundays

if u look you will notice that the player pool from the reg speed 45's is very different to the turbo 45's. not many players overlap blind speeds, but many overlap buyins
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Old 02-24-2012, 02:25 PM   #175
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Re: *** OFFICIAL PokerStars MTTSNG Suggestion Thread ***

also for this big buyin sunday 180 how about have tickets for it incorporated on the new vip leaderboard!!
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