What kind of edges pos flop can you have when playing 20bbs deep?

Why are you asking this question? But yes you can have big post flop edges playing 20bb deep in mtts. Antes make preflop edges bigger and induce more post flop play. It's a win-win. Of course the average pot/stack ratio will be a bit smaller post flop, but I don't really think that is that big of a deal in comparison to the benefits. Especially 50/100 (and to a lesser extent 25/50) was really bad before ante, because there was so little room for being creative from early/middle positions. Antes probably also make stacks a bit deeper at 25/50-100/200. One more level somewhere between 15/30 and 50/100 would be nice though.

pretty huge edges tbh

yep, sure huge huge huge...

You know, 90% of people ive heard about this change dislike it. Horses, other backers, regs, recreational players... Iam referring to 45 mans.

Duration of the tournaments its the same. I could see some logic from stars perspective if the duration decreased. More games per day, more rake... But its not the case so why change it?

Obvs during a period you will have an edge over fishys who wont be able to adapt but that's only till training sites start making videos explaining how to adapt.

If the goal was to make the games more playable they should have added a 250/500 level and make the blinds 4 mins. I cant see how this changes will bring more players to sngs...

Haha Next time try to come up with some actual counter arguments. I'm probably doing a lot better than you at the formats we are discussing. The fact that you don't think there are big post flops edges at 20bb kinda gives it away that you got no clue about mtts. And lol at your suggestion. How does shortening levels by 1 minute make the games more playable?

Whilst you are making changes, PLEASE FIX THE STAGGERED BLIND JUMPS!

I would suggest this:

No it dont. Gamelenght almost identical.

This is sooo true ❤️

not a fan of antes at the very early stages. If you want to then add them to 75/150 level +.

Just my 2 cents

Eliminate 10/20.

15/30
25/50
50/100 ante
75/150 ante
100/200 ante
.....

Is this worst than what you have now?

Going from 25/50 straight to 50/100 is ridiculous, that's a 100% increase. That's the equivalent of going from 500/1000 straight to 1000/2000, and nobody would dream of doing that. It needs to be nice and smooth... 15/30, 20/40, 25/50, 30/60, 40/80, 50/100, 60/120 etc.

The most significant change of adding antes from level 1 is that turbos become more turbo. Winning players will by definition see a drop in ROI. I don't think I need to show any of the masses of empirical data of this.

As to the arguments of getting a larger edge by post flop play:
1) Recs already play too many hands at low levels. They are unlikely to adjust their hand ranges much. The antes will generally make these mistakes smaller.
2) "Nits" (me) are not where the money is. Nits will adapt. In sit and goes profit from outplaying a nit is eaten by the rake.
3) Effective bbs are now smaller, even if you can suddenly profitably call small raises more often. This usually leads to smaller edges. Even as you gain some spots to exploit, you lose others. Far less set mining to win 80bbs, etc.
4) Pokerstars has recently made multiple bad changes for regs, seemingly to lower regs advantage over recs. Do you really think this change is the exception, and they've reversed course?

If these changes were accompanied with higher starting stacks and flatter blind structures, I would be more partial to its proponents.

Ok, some of you seem to like the new structure with ante. But as some said add some more levels and maybe a 2k starting stack?
If not in these sngmtts, the MTTs like hot/hotter really need some blinds added in the last 200-300 as you did with the 16.5$ turbo which runs at 22.30 EET.
Last week had 2 x FTs in hot and hotter and all players were 7-12BB, too much bingo and variance for such big payjumps.

Edit: Now that I've actually played a few I realize the blinds have indeed been flattened quite a bit (although it's still overall faster.) I guess the changes are not as bad as I first thought, but I still contend unnecessary. Why fix what's not broken?

tbh it was broken and was a structure for the use of 2005. Such a nice change.

cool

not quite sure about it yet but I think early antes are awesome... the 50/100 and 100/200 levels have become rly more interesting and I dont mind the earlier antes as well... so imo

wp PS.

I've said it long ago, 2k starting stack and adding a few levels would solve most problems imo. antes don't need to be in the first 2 levels, but I'm not opposed to it IF the structure gets tweaked further.
It's a shame PS doesn't just put some time into working out an agreeable structure, instead they just add antes to every level and call it solved.
Although I prefer this over the previous structure, it's still a missed opportunity imo.

Though I'll admit it's pretty entertaining to see the nits get so worked up over this.

2 K start stack definetely should be a reality, at least for the 180s.

What i do like about the new structure is that it creates more action and chips in play in the early stages. In the old format everyone just waited for KK or AA at the first 3 levels, it was rarely any play at all. Now it forces people to play more hands: or else they simply get blinded down faster.

2k start stack would be great

Fixed.

It's funny how people are asking for a flatter blind structure more or less exactly the way it's used at Full Tilt since the first day I played there 8 years ago. Allowing the same blind increase at Stars would further contribute to the death of Full Tilt, which is something Amaya is certainly not interested in.

FTP is a totally separate entity and i am confident this does not factor into the decision making

It seems odd that 50/100 is missing in the new 18-man structure. 40/80 to 60/120 is a pretty big jump. Also, why level out the 18-man structure but not the 180-man structure. Can't they just be the same?

Seems silly to not take this opportunity to make antes homogeneous imo. And MTTers campaigned for 250/500(a) a few months back, and it was added to all structures afaik. Would be a nice addition imo.


10/20 (3)
15/30 (4)
25/50 (6)
40/80 (10)
50/100 (12)
60/120 (15)
80/160 (20)
100/200 (25)
150/300 (38)
200/400 (50)
250/500 (62)
300/600 (75)
...

Boom, just have that for everything.

new 45man structure seems great. Put that in the 90s and I for one will stop moaning!