Okay so you bet 1/3 pot. Then on turn and river, typically how much you bet on each street assuming the board comes like


k 5 2 7 10

k 5 2 j j



Would you go much larger on 2nd board as oppose to first?



So someone going 50%/60%/60% is bad?



Is going like 60%/60%/75% really bad then?

Do players bet this much even when starting out deepstack in mtt? Seems ridiculous because you cant ever get stacks in that way.

Okay this is what is pretty annoying. You look at some examples and you have players betting their standard flop cbet which seem to be 1/3 the pot these days. But is it correct or incorrect to bet this size when you are super deep? Example when you are like 150bb. I mean you aren't going to get stacks in that way betting this small. Its like when you bet really small on flop, you need to bet really big on turn and river to even have a chance to get stacks in.

Your bet sizing on flop, turn and river on the same flops should be a lot different when you are say 30bb deep vs 50bb deep vs say 100bb deep right?


I was watch some of the higher roller live tournaments and when early on, its like you rarely see a cbet bigger than 1/3rd the pot. It was quarter pot seem standard. For online, what tournaments are good to watch at when looking at players bet sizing? I mean, if you play low and medium stakes online, looking at the bet sizing in those high stakes tournaments online is probably not good idea right since it doesn't apply to low stakes?



Are there players that play low/medium stakes that just bets at least 1/2 pot almost always unless the board is completely dry?

Look, just min it FFSl it's that simple....bet sizing, and counting blinds, is pointless, you can get easily exploited later in tournies cause the villian next to you shoves air beside you once you 3x it UTG.

You want to practice pot control, and you want to leave the door open for all options like folding JQo UTG....you know?

Limping sucks, so you min it, it's poker proper to pay the blinds to play their blinds FFS.

Anyone have video or site where one could watch a player play an entire tournament so i could look at their bet sizing from the beginning to the end?




For example when you are say 100bb deep... your bet size should not be the same as when you have 30bb right? Example when a player raises preflop gets called. Flop comes 10 5 J, and you see many players cbet 1/3rd pot. That player should not be betting that small when they are like 100bb deep right? Also against a calling station, wouldn't it make sense to go big on flop as compared to against a reg?



Other thing is this. I notice on like the high roller bowls... you see players cbetting 1/4 or 1/3 pot at the most when they are like 100bb deep. But not only that... they are doing this on wet boards like q108 with 2 spades for example. I always recall bet size should be big like 3/4 pot when board is wet... and small like 1/3 when pot is dry. But these players seem to bet 1/4 or 1/3 pot no matter what on the flop? It gets even more confusing when some players would say... they advocate even betting smaller... like 10% or 20% pot and i look at it like... whats the point then? I mean yea you are keeping ranges wide but what happen to just betting at least 1/2 pot on flop, turn and river or just going bigger?



Its like do ppl even cbet more than 1/3 pot anymore? It doesn't look right when you bet 1/3 pot on a dry board even when very deep because if you have a big pair, wouldnt you want to bet big to get value from a player with a pair etc?


Its like you hear ppl say bet bigger size when wet board... yet you still see 1/3rd pot bet on the wettest board possible. Its like it contradicts with everything that was said earlier. Also norm seems to be bet 1/3 pot on flop, then go like 3/4 or even pot on turn and bigger on river. Why not just 1/2 pot, and go higher as is? I mean i haven't seen players go like 3/4 pot on flop, turn or river when deep... its rare. Its like you keep betting this small on flop, how you going to get stacks in by river unless you over pot turn and river or even 2x pot if deep.

So when you watch some players videos such as streams or their videos on youtube, they would advocate the 1/3 cbet on flop or even 1/4. But many times you notice they go larger on flop and then turn as oppose to bet small flop, turn and river. And they are doing this on not that wet boards too. Its like they go against the concept of betting small on dry boards.


I mean when you raise preflop say just 25bb deep and flop comes 10 8 6 with 2 of a suit, being the preflop raiser, you should be betting big on the flop right because its a wet board? Then again if say pot is multiway, its mentioned your cbet size should be smaller multway. But you don't want to betting 1/3 pot into wet boards like that when you giving such great pot odds.


Also the betting small when sb vs bb make sense to keep pot small. But how you going to get a big pot then when you 1/3 pot size flop. Then when you go very big on turn, most players are going to fold. Are there any good players these days that rarely 1/3 pot size on flop? You are giving good pot odds, giving others chance to float more... but you do keep their ranges wide. Its like unless the board is dry or paired or you are like 25bb starting stack size or less... you shouldn't be using those small cbet sizing right? I mean i seen players preflop raise 2x on a 100bb stack and i cant imagine that is correct especially if you have a monster since you are suppose to play cash game style whne deep stacks.

I've always found Jonathan Little's rule helpful: when you have the range advantage, you should bet often and small; when your opponent has the range advantage, you should bet less often but larger. While I don't know anything about the specific videos you're referring to, my guess is their betting patterns reflect this basic rule. The wetness of the flop is a factor but the main factor is range advantage.

Yea i know about that jonathan little rule. The thing that confuses me about that is why is it lot of players still don't bet big on wet flops then? Many players still seem to cbet 1/3 pot on boards like 10 8 6 with 2 of same suit etc. I thought why are these players betting so small on these boards? If they have a big hand, they need to bet big to build the pot. Yet rarely there are big size betting here.



Thing is if you do bet big but less often on boards where your opponent has the range advantage, well aren't you going against the rule of not betting too much on the flop? Since rarely you see any cbet more than 1/2 pot? And it also goes against the rule of say its a multiway pot. They say you should lower your bet sizing in a multiway pot. So when you have AA/KK/QQ or AK/AQ/AJ etc... on board of 10 8 6 with 2 of the same suit, you should always bet big like 3/4 pot then if its say 3 or more players? If you bet big on these wet boards if your overpairs, isn't it pretty obvious you have a big hand? Now if you do this with your overcards, well that is just spewing chips betting 3/4 pot multiway in this type of board with multiple players right?



The range advantage of bet often and small make sense. But if you keep doing that, how you going to build a big pot? I still remember some video where it was mentioned not all ace high boards are the same. Like some ace high boards need to be bet big on flop. So like a 8 6 with 2 suits is a big bet? Obviously a 3 9 is dry board so small bet makes sense. But also i believe if there are multiple cards on a flop over an 8 or so... bet big since most people have high cards so you should bet your value hands more for value?

It's hard to say without knowing the specific situations in those videos but they probably involve a lot of late position vs BB spots. If so, it makes sense that players will CB small even on wet flops because the BB's range is so wide that the wetness of the flop isn't as threatening. But let's say there's an early position limp and you raise in CO, and the villain calls. Now a flop of 862ss is much more threatening because his range is much narrower than the BB's range is. So you should be betting less often there, but betting larger to deny equity to his draws.

Nobody really thinks in terms of building a pot with a strong hand because you can't be balanced that way. If you're going to bet large with big hands to build a pot, that means you also have to be willing to bet large with bluffs to remain balanced. It's a lot less expensive to be balanced with smaller bets, which is why smaller bets have become the meta.

There's a lot of interesting points and general theory here. I'm no expert and I can't delve in to everything so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. I do think there's a lot that can be learned from solvers or studying players who are big on solvers/GTO approaches.

You can certainly still use smaller sizes deeper. When we bet small on flop we can still size up later. People feel weird about cbetting 15% then massively sizing up, but it's a thing.

1/3 is still used a lot, but you may want to consider what the difference is between 15-30% and 33%. How does a different sizing benefit you? How does it change their continue range? etc. You can definitely size up with a variety of hands for a variety of reasons. Splitting your range in to a couple sizes is OK, but try not to go with too many sizes. The sizings you've noticed is interesting and I won't try and assume what their reasoning is, but it likely has to do with how they approach the spot with their overall strat. As you and Darth mentioned, when you cbet smaller you can usually bet more frequently. If you're choosing a larger size you'll often want to me more specific. They could also be trying to exploit their opponents, the live super high rollers aren't all regs.

You can still mr from 100bbs , it allows you to raise more hands. But I do agree that you probably want to size up.

I'd suggest sweating more high stakes online than super high roller bowls, or looking at more solver output because you will see larger cbets, especially with a range advantage.
In a GTO sense, it will really depend on your range vs their range.


They do and you can. A simplistic explanation would be; you can bet bigger to get max value with your value hands and bet bigger to get more fold equity with your bluffs. Also, you really don't need to be balanced in low stakes, unless you're playing against regs you play with a lot... even then.

These sort of rules are not applicable to all spots.

A few videos you may find interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLIxoqkuqiY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsiDm-l5b3E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er0iImASL4Y

Its mentioned you should bet more but less often when on wet boards. So is this almost always true? I mean let say you have an overpair and flop comes like 9 7 5 with 2 spades and you got 2 red aces for example. I mean whether you are short stack or deep, shouldn't you rarely if ever bet 1/3 pot here? Obviously it depends on if its heads up or multiway.


But issue is there is the concept of bet size needs to be much smaller multiway than heads up. Yea... but betting 1/3rd pot into multiple players on this board... just doesn't seem like good idea. If you have a shorter stack... and your spr is low, obviously nothing wrong with getting in 20bb if its a multiway pot on this type of board. But if you are deeper, don't you need to bet big? Like 3/4 the pot? The other issue arises here is when you do this multiway, its pretty obvious you have a big overpair or flush draw. Of course you can counter with this when you have 2 overcards but doing that multiway on this kind of board is obviously rarely a good idea ever as you have no range advantage and against multiple players,

That was my point, you can balance but it will be expensive to do so. And while I agree that you don't need to be too concerned with balance at low stakes, bet sizing tells are pretty easy to detect. It won't take long for people to notice that you bet big when you have it and are trying to build a pot.

So there is also the discussion of when pot is multiway, you need to bet small. So let say a player with 50bb raises in EP. Let say he has AA. He gets 3 callers in mp, button and bb. Flop comes K J 8 rainbow. This is still a wet board even though it is rainbow right? Always recalled when flops contain cards are between Q to 8, it is wet because it hit players range. So here the max you should bet is 50% and even that is too much? Let say all the other players have 50bb to make it simple. It seem like 1/3rd pot is the standard here but when you do this, you are giving great pots odds to everyone. Sure you keep ranges wide but now you are giving others a good chance to outdraw you. So say you get 2 callers. If the turn is a blank such as a 2, then you bet real big then as is 3/4 pot? Seems like players bet 1/3rd pot flop and then go big on turn and river etc.




Also with preflop, I believe Daniel Negreanu mentioned something like preflop raise is 2x unless its deep like 200bb. Think he said with that stack size you 2.5x. But does anyone here think that is still too little? Thing that is strange is Little mentions you should raise bigger preflop when deep but in some videos he would 2x or 2.1x when 80bb deep which is completely against what is said earlier?



Also I recalled in a video he mentioned how when you raise preflop and get called. Let say you have 99 or j10o to make it simple. Say you are 40bb deep and so is the other player and say they are BB. You min raise and they call. When flop comes 8 7 2 with 2 of suit to make it simple, I recalled he mention after BB checks, you should bet big as in 3/4 pot or close to pot. That is what you should be doing here? Think he said with 99, you most likely have the best hand now but it is vulnerable with this board as it is a wet board which makes sense. He then says bet big on turn and river as well. So basically no matter what cards you have here... you should be betting that big on flop? I mean you suppose to do that with AK or 55 as well? I mean... with 55... that would seem to be a check because it is medium strange hand? But then again if you check, you give tons of free cards and not much turns are good for you there so seems better to just bet and take it down if you can? Also can't imagine betting that big with 88 or 77 since well you have a monster even though there is a flush and possible straight draw possible. I do get his reasoning with doing this with J10o since you have 2 overcards and a gutshot and with aggression, you can take it down on flop or turn etc. But then in some videos of his, his bet sizing goes against what he says.



So if you raise preflop with AA or AK and flop comes like K Q 10. This should be a small or medium or big bet size on flop? I mean you have raise advantage and nut advantage. But your opponents usually have a draw or non nut hand here. Now this differs a lot if flop is K Q J?



Also does anyone recall about the thing with the ace flop such as not all ace high flops are the same? Such that if it comes a 2 8 rainbow, that is dry board so 1/3rd pot size make sense. But if it comes like a 7 8 rainbow even, that is still dry right? But if it is 2 of a suit, that is wet so you need to bet big on that? Then again, I thought the rule was you don't want to bet more than 50% on the flop at the max so the flop texture completely goes against this?

ofc

All right, from what I remember from my studying, here's the best reasoning I can come up with to answer these questions:

Yeah, I think the last part is correct. Part of the reason you bet smaller on the flop with certain boards is that you can then follow up with your whole range on a good turn and blast villain off their weaker continues, making more than you would if you sized up on the flop and got a fold. That's more applicable to heads-up, though, especially raiser vs. BB defense. Multiway you don't want to c-bet light very often if at all. But, yeah, in this scenario I would say it's good to bet the flop smaller and then fire big on a blank turn. (The other option, depending on your depth, is to go for a check-raise, if your stack depth is such that you're comfortable getting it in with the overpair.)

Don't forget villains will have some strong hands, too-- KJ, 88 and sometimes JJ-- and you don't want to make a bet sizing where villain's continuing range has too high a percentage of hands that beat you, because that will put you in a really difficult spot on future streets.

Generally there isn't much EV difference between 2-2.5x. 2.2x is my broad standard; I scale down to 2x under 25BB effective or late in the tournament; I scale up to 2.5x when we're deep-stacked and I'm raising from the button.

Generally you want to try to play all your hands similarly on early streets, especially against good players, rather than splitting your range by value. If you always check 55, 7x, and overcards with no straight or flush equity, but you always bet overpairs, 8x, and overcards with straight and/or flush equity, you're going to tell your opponents too much about your hand. The big reason you can bet this flop big is that this is a dynamic board in the sense that what qualifies a strong hand is likely to change significantly. In other words, top pair doesn't figure to remain top pair for long, not to mention the straight and flush draws. You bet big because there are a lot of cards you can use on the turn and river to continue pressuring villain, and you want to be able to put them in a difficult spot of not knowing say, when the 8d 7d 2s board runs out Js and Kd, whether you're just turning 55 or QsTs into a bluff, or you've been betting Th9h, AdQd, or KK this whole time. (And in position you always have the option of checking back that third street if you have enough showdown value and you don't think worse hands will call.)

Assuming you're talking about a pot with BB defending: If I recall correctly, you go small or medium here because your equity runs close to villain's calling hands, so you don't want to hit the gas and build a big pot now. Villain's range is going to be split between zero-equity hands that fold to any bet (i.e. 76s and that sort of thing) and hands whose equity is close to yours, and those hands aren't going to fold to a bigger flop bet anyway (QJ, KJ, that sort of thing). So you keep the pot small for now and if the turn bricks or hits in your favor you can bet bigger. You're also protected more against check-raises if you bet small-- what's your plan if you bet pot with AK on KQT and get check-raised?

There's certainly no rule against betting bigger on the flop than that if you're deep enough. (I scale down my range of bet sizes once I'm shorter or it's deep enough in the tournament to use the implied pressure of ICM to achieve the same effect with a smaller bet.) I most commonly c-bet 1/3 pot, but I have a range of boards where I bet 2/3 pot, and I have everything in my arsenal from minbet, 1/4 pot, 1/3 pot, 1/2 pot, 2/3 pot, 3/4 pot, 90% pot, pot, and a couple of overbet sizes as well. You don't want to follow any hard-and-fast rules if they prevent you from using the right tool for the job.

In this specific example: If you bet small on an A87 flush draw flop, villain is going to be able to continue with not only a lot of second and third pairs but also a lot of hands like JT, probably even like 54s with a backdoor flush draw, and that sort of thing, and you haven't narrowed the range enough to know what's a good or bad card for you. You want to fold out the weaker portion of villain's continuing range and you want to charge the good draws the maximum. You can then still blast away on brick turns, preventing them from seeing two cards. (Some of the stuff I've gotten into suggests even an overbet c-bet is fine if you're sufficiently deep.) At least, I'm pretty sure this is correct-- admittedly, I feel like I'm not 100% dialed in on what BB's proper calling or check-raising range is here vs. a 2/3 pot or pot c-bet.

Again, assuming PFR vs. BB defend, you can also bet big on boards like AKx because your range has the AK, AA, KK, and all the other strong aces, and the BB's doesn't because they didn't 3-bet. (If you're raising from EP, it's more likely they just defend AQ than 3-bet it, but at the same time your range is tighter as well.)

I do want to say a lot of what I've said here is assuming you're the preflop raiser vs. a big blind defender. Being out of position and against a range that's calling without closing the action or getting the price the BB is is going to change how you play a lot. (Most notably, you should simply c-bet less often, although there are a lot of spots you can check-raise if villain bets the flop after you check.)

I'll add that perhaps the biggest key point to take away from all of this is that your flop c-bet frequency and sizing should be based on the flop texture and how your raising range and the BB's defending range interact with it, rather than the strength of your specific hand.

Unbelievable that this thread started 5 years ago.

There is also an amazing free video that was already posted here from a runitonce coach explaining it in more simpler terms....."The Ice-Skating Method"