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Old 11-12-2018, 11:56 PM   #1
PaulyJames200x
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Modern Day Betsizing?

I remembered back in the days when a cbet was 1/2 the pot to 2/3 the pot. Preflop raise sizes was 3x to 4x mostly. Almost nobody minraised. But obviously the game has changed where it went to 2.5x... and now its like 2x or 2.3x etc. But not only that, i noticed that the flop bet sizing is very different now. Back then it would cbet 1/2 the pot or 2/3rd the pot. 3/4 the pot if draw heavy. But it seems now, players are 1/4 to 1/3 the pot size in cbetting now.



Does anyone even cbet more than 1/2 the pot anymore? The thing is i notice even daniel negreanu mentioned in his vlogs when he plays in those high roller tournaments, okay we will cbet here with our entire range. Then would bet like 20k into an 80k pot and this is standard. I understand when you do this, well it keeps your range wide and also keeps the callers range wide. But why is this the norm? I mean if you have aa or kk and raise and get 2 callers. Let say pot is 2000 chips to make it simple. I mean if you bet 500 chips or 1/4 the pot, not only are you giving great pot odds, it basically allow other players to play back at you. Now i know this is what you want when you have a big hand, but with aa and no set, well you have 1 pair only. I notice players online would cbet like 1/3rd the pot even on board like j 10 8 with 2 clubs and they have AA. How can this be even correct. I could understand this if say starting stacks are like 40bb and less. But this is wrong when you have an 60bb or 100bb or 150bb stack right? Or do players do this even when deepstack like 150bb deep? Bet sizing postflop should be like a cash game when you are 100bb deep right?



Because back then if board is j 10 8 with 2 clubs and you have 2 red aces, well you should bet at least 2/3rd the pot because its a very draw heavy board... it would be recommended to bet even larger than that. But the reason players dont do it now is b/c it makes your range very narrow right? What is the real reason for this bet sizing?



2. I noticed that even cbets are very tiny, it seems like the norm is bet small for cbet like 1/3rd the pot... then on the turn and river... start betting 2/3rd the pot or larger? Its like okay cbet flop 1/4 to 1/3rd the pot. Then the turn is like 2/3rd the pot. Then river is usually like 1/2 to pot or even more. I remember some high stakes cash game players online would do stuff like this but is this the norm for mtt play now? Back then the standard was like 1/2 pot flop, turn and river or 2/3rd the pot etc. But rarely was it small bet flop, then bet big turn and river. Because online that seems to be the norm. So its basically incorrect to bet anything bigger than half the pot on the flop? I mean it would be wrong to cbet 2/3rd the pot nowadays? Or that is fine when stacks are deep but how deep?



3. Preflop raise size. We all know about the min raise to 2.1 or 2.2 or 2.3x raise size. But when players are deep like 60bb or more, that is incorrect right? I mean if a player has 100bb, that player should not be min raising or 2.1x raise? Thus the min raise and 2.1x should only be done when your stack is say 40bb or less? Does anyone have a general guideline of preflop bet sizing according to their stacks? Like something like this


40bb stack and below... 2x to 2.3x
41bb-100bb stack... 2.5x
101bb-150bb stack... 3x
151bb stack... 3x - 3.5x


When i play sometimes, i go okay should i make this 2.1x or 2.5x? Or 2.5x or 3x? Sometimes i might say okay should i go 3.5x or 4x because its 200bb deep etc.



Can someone post some hand histories here of hands played by good mtt players where it shows stack size such as okay this is how you play an overpair or tptk with a 100bb stack.. vs 60bb stack vs 40bb stack vs 30bb stack and 20bb stack etc? Because i like to know the bet size percentages postflop on this.
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Old 11-13-2018, 09:59 AM   #2
takeitAll
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

I remember either, but still, when heavy draws are on board, i usually bet 2/3 pot on flop, if call station is calling and the turn is brick, i shot again 2/3 pot, maybe more.

On other side, if board is not heavy draw at all, im cbet-ing slicly under 1/2 of pot, lets say around 38-42%.

Agree with you in those deep stacks, maybe its better to bet more.
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Old 11-19-2018, 10:39 PM   #3
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Anyone like to add to this?


Also another that confuses me is 3 bet sizing. When you play tournaments for example, i read that when you are very deep, like 100bb deep or more, you should 3bet like in a cash game. But you could 3bet less in position. They say that you 3.5x-4x even out of position or even larger. Now say you are 50bb or 30bb deep etc. The thing is when you 3bet, are you still suppose to 3bet around pot size when you are out of position? Because i recalled players would 3bet small amounts... say someone at 1k/2k bb raises to 4200. Another player would 3bet to say 9600. Like basically minimum or a bit more. I thought when you are in position, you should bet at least 2.5x 3bet minimum no matter what the stack sizes are? Thus if say both players have 60k at 2k bb... they raise to 4200... a 3bet should be at least to 10500? The thing is when you 3bet less, you give other players great pot odds. But what is the standard 3bet size nowadays when you are 30bb deep, 40bb deep, 50bb deep, 60bb deep, 80bb deep, 100bb deep etc?
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Old 11-20-2018, 03:16 PM   #4
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Again agree on PF situation. If im OOP i 3 bet less than if im OP. Like you said, on the raise mention above, i will raise OOP 10100 or smthg like that.

OP im adding aprox. 10% on that what i raise OOP, depends on level of tourney, player (agro, passive,...).
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:05 AM   #5
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
Anyone like to add to this?


Also another that confuses me is 3 bet sizing. When you play tournaments for example, i read that when you are very deep, like 100bb deep or more, you should 3bet like in a cash game. But you could 3bet less in position. They say that you 3.5x-4x even out of position or even larger. Now say you are 50bb or 30bb deep etc. The thing is when you 3bet, are you still suppose to 3bet around pot size when you are out of position? Because i recalled players would 3bet small amounts... say someone at 1k/2k bb raises to 4200. Another player would 3bet to say 9600. Like basically minimum or a bit more. I thought when you are in position, you should bet at least 2.5x 3bet minimum no matter what the stack sizes are? Thus if say both players have 60k at 2k bb... they raise to 4200... a 3bet should be at least to 10500? The thing is when you 3bet less, you give other players great pot odds. But what is the standard 3bet size nowadays when you are 30bb deep, 40bb deep, 50bb deep, 60bb deep, 80bb deep, 100bb deep etc?
I agree with 3 betting less out of position but when you do 3 bet, make the amount more than you would normally. I tend to base my 3 bet on the openers sizing. If oop, I tend to go 3-4x oop and when in position, will go 2.5x-3.5x depending on factors such as other players flatting etc. I like to open smaller when shallow to allow for post flop plays such as double barreling and cbetting. Basically if 40-50 bbs or below, prolly going 2.0x-2.2x as a standard open. It really depends on what you want. If you are a poor post flop player, you probably wanna size up to 2.5-3x to discourage bb flatting etc. Iím generally cbetting even when I miss a flop so I like to min open when stacks are shallow.

If people flat you on short stacks such as 20-30 bbs, your cbets can be smaller like 1/3-1/2 pot as they have to basically decide whether to pitch or play. I tend to stick to 1/2 pot cbets normally when mid-deep however you should adjust based on board texture/ how likely your opponent hit. I tend to like to Cbet more than my open size as I feel it looks semi weak if you Cbet the same amount you initially raise with. Ex at 2/4K if I open to 8k, I prolly wanna Cbet like 10k+ generally as I feel an 8k Cbet looks weak + pot odds are much better for a call by villains. Meh this explanation is prolly bad but just something I like to stick to.

I honestly wanna try to start opening to bigger amounts like 3.5-4.5x when stacks are very deep early in mtts. I feel playing heads up pots are so much easier than against 3-5 opponents. I tend to Cbet way too much so I feel this is a problem I personally need to work on.

I really like the sizing you have stated in your original post. I recommend you listen to the tournament poker edge podcast where they discuss early stage bet sizing. (Google tournament poker edge- at website go to media and listen to the podcast with Hagbard Celine / hitthepanda). That specific podcast discusses bet sizing and breaks down why they want to bet a specific amount and rationale behind it.

Random aside but I like to tell people to focus on position. I love isoing limpers, 3 betting from the button or close to it because pots are so much easier to play when last to act. I feel a ton of live players will donk bet into 3 bettors/ ISO raisers when they hit a flop. Sure people can donk bet with air but I feel a lot of live players will donk bet to protect their hand not knowing that they most likely should check a good portion of the time as most solid mtters will Cbet anything in most spots in a HU pot. Just my thoughts. Iím not an expert and need to play a lot more but just how I feel about mtts.
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Old 12-05-2018, 11:19 PM   #6
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

What is the standard 3bet size when stacks are say 40bb and less? I noticed that when a player in the button or LP raises, when the sb or bb 3bets, he would make it close to pot size. Like say 1000/2000 blinds, lp raises it to 4000, the sb or bb would 3bet to like 14000 or even more. Is that standard now? So even 3betting to 3x like 12000 would be bad because OOP? So 2.5x 3bet OOP is horrible no matter what then?


Its like even when the sb or bb had 30bb or less and the LP raises, they are making it huge preflop. Is that standard nowadays? Like they are 3.5x or even more. I could understand that when deep stack like 100bb or more... but when you are 30bb deep in the sb or bb? I can understand doing that to make it expensive for the preflop raiser to see a flop. But is this standard? Or the players do this because they are not good postflop players maybe?



Also i notice in cbets... players are cbetting very tiny. Like you don't even see a 1/2 pot size cbet anymore. The size are like 1/4 to 1/3rd pot. Is this now the norm? I notice players are doing this with overpairs when flops come like j 10 7 where its a draw heavy flop. Shouldn't they be betting minimum 1/2 pot at the very least? I do notice some players would 1/2 pot cbet or a bit bigger. But many players seem to be 1/4 to 1/3 pot betting on flop. What is the purpose of this besides keeping ranges wide? I mean when players 1/4 to 1/3 pot bet cbet on the flop, the other player is rarely going to fold unless the board is like ace or king high dry board etc. Why don't players go at least 1/2 pot size. Its like players 1/4 to 1/3 pot bet... then on the turn and river... they up the bet to like 60-65% pot and then pot size the river or close to it. I could understand that when you want to fire 3 shells. But what is the purpose of the 1st shell when you are getting called on flop most of the time? Its to bet small and get a fold... or get a call. Then bet bigger on turn... and bomb river so if they get called twice on flop and turn, well a river fold would get them more chips as oppose to a bigger cbet size where they don't get anything after the flop? Obviously if you are bluffing you want other player to fold flop. But are players hoping to get called on flop and turn so they could bet big so they get river fold that way they make more chips? Are there any players that even bet 1/2 pot or more on flop anymore? I recalled Negreanu mentioned in a video where he analyze a hand against Justin Bonomo and he would say okay now i cbet flop quarter pot and said it is standard. Said he would do this with overpair and everything else. To me, its like getting asked to get played back at or floated etc when you bet that tiny. I mean are there players that just bet a normal size like 1/2 pot or more on flop these days? I mean i see this kind of betting was flop is wet as well which makes no sense.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:48 AM   #7
Percyeus86
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by takeitAll View Post
Again agree on PF situation. If im OOP i 3 bet less than if im OP. Like you said, on the raise mention above, i will raise OOP 10100 or smthg like that.

OP im adding aprox. 10% on that what i raise OOP, depends on level of tourney, player (agro, passive,...).
Why are you 3betting more IP than OOP? When OOP, you should generally be 3betting more due to your positional disadvantage.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:52 AM   #8
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

For me, cbet sizing depends entirely on the situation/flop texture. I think randomly picking a size on a whim is a huge flaw. You know, if we open up 88 in LP and get one caller from the BU and the board comes Q-8-3 rainbow, we can be 1/4 or 1/3 or even check - those are our options. If we open up 88 UTG, and get one caller from the BU and the flop comes A-K-6 rainbow, we can go 3/4 or 2/3 pot in this situation. Depends on a bunch of things .
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Old 12-09-2018, 01:57 AM   #9
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Im confused with what you mentioned. If flop comes a k 6 rainbow and you raise utg and get called on the button... why is your bet size that big 2/3 to 3/4 pot? Because it mostly hits your range and not the button so shouldn't the bet size be smaller? With those type of flops like a k 6 rainbow which is dry, shouldn't you be betting smaller? The issue though is if you do, then how do you build a pot then if you have sets, 2 pair, ax with big kicker etc. The thing that is confusing is i notice players would sometimes bigger on boards like this but other times bet like as low as quarter pot to 1/3rd pot on the flop.


If you raise with 88 in lp and get called on button and flop comes q83 rainbow, well its completely wrong to bet big on this type of flop? If your opponent has kq, any type of q, they would be calling at least a flop bet. Also how would you even get much value if you betting that small? People talk about getting 2 or 3 streets of value. But if you are betting 1/4 or 1/3 on flop... how much are you betting on turn? Surely not that small again right? If you do, well a cbet of 1/2 pot would get you same value on one street as oppose to 2 streets of 1/4 pot etc. Also if you bet 1/4 pot... its hard to build a big pot. I mean... you could bet 1/4 pot, then 1/3 pot and then 1/2 pot? However, if you just bet 1/2 pot, 2/3 pot and then get fold on river... you made more chips was oppose to betting all 3 streets with 1/4 pot, 1/3 pot and then 1/2 pot.
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Old 12-09-2018, 02:02 AM   #10
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Also, is it wrong to 3bet oop anything less than 3x? Was watching a few videos online and notice lot of players would 3bet close to pot size when OOP. They are doing this even with hands as strong as AA and KK and AK when under 30BB. I mean... i understand you are OOP... but 3betting that big would discourage a raiser to call the preflop raise especially if your stack is like 30BB only. Now if you have 100BB, that makes sense. But is it correct to 3bet that big OOP with like a 30bb stack? I mean if a player min raise or 2.2x to make it simple... the BB would 3bet to like 7x to 8x. Isn't that excessive especially if you are like 30bb or less? And even if you are 100bb deep, why do they say you might even go larger than pot? Seems like a huge 3bet when OOP.


Also when IP, what is the standard 3bet size? The thing is if a player 2x or 2.2x... if you don't at least 3x their initial raise, you are giving them great pot odds right? So when 3betting, always at least 3x their initial raise? Thus 2x min raise... at least 3bet to 6x? if they 2.2x, at least 6.6x? If they 2.5x, at least 7.5x? The thing that confuses me is why then do lot of players 3bet like 2.5x or even smaller? I seen this before and its like you are giving great pot odds to the other player. If you are 100bb deep... if a player 2.5 or 3x... you should be least 3x at the absolute minimum even when IP right? Back then i recalled players would min raise at 1000/2000 to 4k... then you get like a 3bet to like 9k or 10k. But isn't that way too tiny?
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Old 12-09-2018, 10:31 AM   #11
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Just going off on the basic gist of what you've written. I ain't no Fedor Holz or Justin Bonomo, but here are my thoughts.

1) On smaller bet sizes

I wouldn't worry too much about what pros do. They have their own thing going. We can emulate their bet sizes, but won't work too well in low-mid stakes, especially in the low stakes.

Pros are able to fold top pairs, even sets, even K-high flushes and even full houses. I think, to them, each bet represented the idea (and/or the hand). And once they figure out what it is, they can find those big folds. In low stakes, almost nobody is folding a top pair. Many continue with bottom pair. Many will call till kingdom come with a 6 high flush draw.

With pros, betting small may give others better pot odds to call. But, those on A high flush draw or open ender are calling anyway. There is nothing worse than knowing that your opponent is on a flush/straight draw and seeing that card peel on the turn.

I saw how poker became hyper aggressive. I've noticed that it's become conservative again now. I think pros can still convey the message about their holding even with the smaller bet sizes and hammer the river if they are certain that they have the winning hand. Even then, many seem to elect suspiciously small bet size to instigate a call.

2) Huge 3-bet size

I think most are happy to just take down the pot pre-flop, even with AA, KK, QQ and AK.

With AK, we can 3-bet 2x...but, what if we miss the flop?

With KK and QQ, how many times have we 3-bet and an Ace flops?

Even with AA, once the board is KKQ, QQJ, KQQ, QJJ, KQJ, QJT, etc, it's not safe.

I experiments with flatting or just 2x 3-betting with AAs OOP. Had it cracked so many times. Some times, I was able to keep the hands that I crush in. And were able to stack someone holding KQ when K42 flops.

I guess it just depends on how many are already in the hand. If I hold AA or KK in the BB, and there has been a UTG open-raise and 3 called flat, I'm happy to just either jam or 5x+ 3-bet to take the pot there and there. 2x 3-betting there might get one or two to fold, but it is inevitably going to end up being a multi-way pot, especially in low stakes.

Again, I think 3~5x 3-bet conveys the idea that I'm holding AA, KK, QQ or AK. And those who get the idea will either fold or take a gamble with their Ax, Kx or middle pairs. I think just 2x 3-betting will give too many people a lot of reason to stay with all sorts of junks. And out flop you.


I could be totally wrong in my thought process, however.
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Old 12-12-2018, 12:39 AM   #12
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Well you rarely see bigger flop bet sizes nowadays. I mean when flop comes like 552 rainbow, you rarely see a cbet bigger than 1/3rd the pot anymore. I understand the reasoning of the bet size. However, if you are 50bb or 100bb deep... by betting that small, you aren't going to get stacks in the river if your opponent has a pair and is willing to call flop, turn and maybe even river bet. Because i know that in cash games, because stacks are deep... you use big bet sizing to get stacks by the river. But for tournaments, i mean unless you want to bet 1/3rd pot and then close to pot on turn and overbet pot on river... that would be only way to get stacks in.



But when board is like 552 rainbow... if you want to get stacks in when you are deep... like 50bb or more... then shouldn't you be using bigger sizing? Like even 2/3rd the pot if you are like 60bb or more deep? I know if you are like 25bb deep... well you could bet quarter or 1/3rd flop bet and bet a bit more on turn and river and that is fine to get it in. But when deeper stack, this quarter or 1/3rd bet sizing shouldn't be used right? However, i recall daniel negreanu in a video discussing hands where he would explain his analysis and then say he cbet quarter pot and its standard. But how will you even get chips in by betting that small? Seems like you are losing lot of value that way. So deeper stack, don't use that small sizing correct?
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:36 PM   #13
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

1) It used to be that cash players were way ahead in poker theory and solver usage. With large range advantage it is often optimal to bet flop with whole range and small sizing and that's it. What happens is that usually even the caller will have half of their range HIGH CARDS after flop goes bet -call so the idea is not to get into point where you can fold big hands, but more so forcing people to play very weak ranges. Small flop bets are not what bets used to be: they don't represent anything but rather just point out that "my range is stronger than yours". Even though such cbet get folds 20-35% of the time against good opponent that portion of folds evens out players' ranges and turn and river are played a bit more normal.

2. Later in the hand bets become more what they used to be: valuebets, semibluffs and bluffs. As people have become better at balancing their ranges, bigger bets work well as they still give villain good enough odds to call and bad enough odds to fold. Also in some special cases players have big incentive to overbet. For example in many cases when flop goes check - check the last player has top pair or combo draw less than 20% of the time. That means that villain can bet 2 times the pot and gets enough folds to profit with bluffs and a lot of chips in the pot when villain has top pair and weak kicker (optimal strategy calls some hands weaker than combo draws or top pairs so that bluffs need some equity to profit). Other times one player is capped to top pairs or overpairs while other has 2 pair or better 20+ % of the time. That is also good spot for overbet, because usually the player with caped range has to call at least once with all top pairs and twice with much more one pair hands than premiums. These strategies combined with close to optimal bluff frequency create more stackoff and bluff opportunities.

Some of these strategies are not the best for exploiting weak opponents. For example betting turn small when opponent has pair only 30-40% of the time works great against people who fold most gutshots or high card hands on the turn. Against experienced players unfamiliar with modern theory you do better making advanced plays: most players play fairly well against medium bet sizes but have hard time playing correctly against overbets or very small flop continuation bets, where the correct response is not what people used to do.

E: About 3-bets: it used to be that tournament pros didn't know how to play postflop so they folded way too often against small 3-bets. With help from solvers you can study game trees for situations where opponent 3-bets with polarized range and indeed you can call with whole opening range if the 3-bet is too small. Without solvers you would need a lot of work to call down enough streets with enough hands so that neither your opponents bluffs nor monsters would overperform. With solvers those strategies are easier to study and also believe. Seeing opponents whole optimal game tree with given parameters allows you to see the good outcomes with the bad, while before it could always feel like punting a deep run when calling down with some top pair or punting chips calling one street with weaker than top pair or even high card hand.

Last edited by Paklu; 12-13-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:25 PM   #14
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Well are these cbet sizing throughout a tournament? Like is it correct to bet these amounts when super deep stack like 200bb or more? I can't imagine it being correct but that seems to be what all the good players do. I mean example look at the super high roller on tv... players are cbetting like 1/4 pot to 1/3 pot. I mean... how are they going to get chips in the middle like this unless they start overbetting the turn and river.

Also if players are cbetting this small... isn't raising a pretty good idea? I also notice that many players seem to cbet very small a lot but when they have say top pair or better... they would size it up just a bit... but they don't even bet half the pot. Also players would cbet like 1/5th the pot as well. I mean that looks like button clicking to me. What is the purpose of betting that small. Get value but what kind of value.

Do players even cbet 1/2 the pot anymore? I mean when flop comes k j 8... its like a player with aa or ak is betting like 1/3 the pot or even less. I mean how are you going to get chips in that way? You bet like that and then bet on turn bigger, they fold... well you won a very small pot. Also when people talk about he won't get more than 2 streets or 1 street of value. Well let say 2 streets of value. If you bet 1/4 pot and then 1/2 pot... The same player that bets 3/4 pot and gets called on one street gets the same value and can make more chips that way. Also when players cbet 1/4 to 1/3 the pot as original raiser on like a 8 6 5 board... what is the purpose of doing this since this hits the BB range more than the original raiser? I see this all the time and its like asking to get raised. I mean even with AA or KK... betting 1/4 to 1/3 the pot is basically asking to get played back at or giving a player a very cheap price to draw to a straight or 2 pair if they hit anything.


Also i heard a while back ppl play exploitive. Can someone explain this? So if a player rarely bets 1/4 to 1/3rd the pot and most of their bet sizing is 1/2 pot or a bit more UNLESS the board is like ace high rainbow or paired board... then they are explotive kind of player? I mean when i cbet or bet... i want to see if a player has something decent. By betting 1/4 to 1/3 the pot... you not getting that much information. Yes you are keeping their range wide and yours too... but how are you going to get much info on it. Like if you bet big... and they call twice... well you can assume they have at least a good draw or top pair if they are decent player. You bet that 1/3 or 1/4 pot... you wouldn't have a clue what the other player has unless he plays completely fit or fold or abc.


When did solvers came about? Back then when i started playing a while back, most ppl just use pokertracker or holdem manager. There was icm calculation etc but there was nothing like solver or things liker poker snowie etc. So could you explain these solvers really quickly? So basically it tells you how to play a hand optimally? What percentage of players use software like this? Are there any winning players that does not use solvers etc?
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Old 12-14-2018, 07:02 AM   #15
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Interesting thread ! Thx OP !

My thinking on the different points :

1. People have more control with the knowledge that is today far greater than say 10 years ago and legitimately want more control. This makes that real chips are put in later streets as well as wanting to prevent a catastrophe like loosing to a backdoor or stuff. 1/4 pot cbet accomplishes that as well as gives you more info on villain's range. Usually then, as you said, the bets are way bigger OTT. Also as said it allows you to keep your range wide when you're solid and play consistently in later streets, people will tend to avoid you and you can take out some pots without risking much when you cbet air.

2. Depends what the plan is and stack sizes. I won't mind going all in overbet OTF with a big pair in a flop 567 with or without a flush draw if SPR is between 1 and 2-2,5. Also we always need to adapt to villain. If weak calling station is in front of you, you can go bigger with your best hands for example.

3. I usually adjust to the table. If raising 3 or 4x will tend to fold everyone that does not have top 10% of the hands, no need to do it with your best hands. On the opposite, if raising 2 or 2,2x will generate too many calls, I'll tend to go bigger with my best hands and polarize it to keep deception on my raises.

Concerning 3bets. You raise bigger OOP than IP and more often IP than OOP due to positional disadvanatge / advantage. When raising OOP, you want to make it expensive because you are defending and you can't really toy with opponent as he has more control on the pot than you and in that case you generally want to gii asap when you hit or aleady have a big pair so that you don't give good odds for drawing. When IP, you control pot size and you attack so you want to more room to outplay opponent which you achieve by raising small.

For solvers, it allows you to calculate GTO in some simple cases.
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Old 12-27-2018, 09:43 PM   #16
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Well what about when you are deeper stack. Example you are 100bb deep or around there. When you have AK, you raise say 2.5x or 3x. Make it 2.5x to make it simple. BB calls your raise.


Board comes k 8 6 with 2 spades etc. You have AK clubs. Now when you are shorter stack, seems like cbet size is 25-40% pot when i look at players cbetting. But are you suppose to cbet that size when 100bb or even 60bb? The issue is when you bet this small, you aren't going to build a big pot this way with this 25-40% pot size bet etc. I recall the rule back then was big hands want big pots etc. So if players keep betting like this... they even bet 1/4 pot... then how you going to make the pot even big then? Bet 1/4 pot and then bet 2/3rd pot and then 2/3rd pot minimum on river?


So its incorrect to bet 50-67% pot on boards like this? Also when flops come like 7 7 3, why not bet bigger when you have a big pair if the other player will at least call a flop bet if they have a pair or overs? Its like you bet 1/3rd pot... you get a call. Then turn comes you bet again but pot is tiny because of the small cbet size.
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Old 01-02-2019, 11:22 PM   #17
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Okay so in tournaments, whenever someone 2.2x or 2.5x or 3x or whatnot, generally you should at least 3x their raise size right? But if a player does this with a 20bb stack, and you have say 50bb stack, you should still do the same? What happened to players like 2.3x or 2.5x 3betting the other player? Back then i recalled that happened a lot. But issue is when you do that, you are offering the other player great pot odds. So why has this changed then?


Also when OOP, pretty much 3x is the absolute minimum no matter if you have a 30bb stack or 50bb or 100bb stack? It should be like 3-4x the amount minimum though? I notice when players in the sb or bb when the button or lp or even mp or ep raises, they would like 3bet pot size it from the sb or bb. So this is standard now? I know if you are OOP, you should 3bet larger to deny pot odds but isn't that going overboard when you have like a 35bb and below stack? You are going to get lot of folds that way since most of the time, that 3bet size commits you to call an all in.


Also postflop, what is the standard cbet size nowadays? The thing that is strange is why do certain players do 1/4 pot or 1/3 pot whereas others do at least 1/2 pot or more? I notice this is done on boards that are not dry etc.


Also when players cbet 1/4 or 1/3, are they really anticipating the other player folding to that bet? Its like asking to get floated or raised. But if you bet bigger like 1/2 pot or bigger, well the other player generally would play more honest. Like if you bet 3/4 on the flop, well those same players would float a lot less. But of course you want that in certain situations as well. But if they bet that size on flop and turn, well the other player probably won't float twice etc.


So what is the purpose of these 1/4 or 1/3 pot size bets on the flop? Is it like okay bet this, expect it to get called with a hand or draw or get floated. Then bet bigger on turn and river if called on turn so that way, you are picking up these floating chips?


Also when you bet this small, its hard to build pots if you have overpairs, sets, flushs, straights, 2 pairs etc.
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Old 01-05-2019, 04:00 PM   #18
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Okay so i was watching a few streams of players who are decent. Most of the tournaments i watch them play when its in a video, they have like 50bb stack and below and often times much lower. I notice the cbet size is very small as in 1/4 to 1/3 pot. However, if they are 80bb deep or more, are you suppose to use the same 1/4 to 1/3 cbet pot size bet or not? Because its like cbet size is 1/3 nowadays but when you are 80bb deep or more, is that normal or are you suppose to bet like a cash game?
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:46 PM   #19
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

So I notice that when players are OOP, they are 3betting much larger... close to like pot size. Is this standard even when your stacksize is like 30bb and less?


Example


Blinds 500/1000. Button has 40000. SB has 40000. BB has 35000.


Button makes it 2200 or 2.2x


SB 3bets to 7000 or 3.5x the initial raise. I notice sometimes they do it to as large was 8000 or 8x. So basically when you 3bet from the SB here, it should be minimum 7000? thus making it 6600 isn't enough?


So if the player was in the BB. What is the standard 3bet sizing when the button raises 2.2x or 2200? Is it 7000 or so? I always read that you should be minimum 3x the initial raise when OOP. And many times you go 3.5x to 4x it OOP when say 40bb and less? But what surprised me was you really are suppose to 3bet that big OOP? I could understand that when you are deeper stack but is it standard when under 40bb? I read an article from they said the reason for this is because if you 3bet smaller.. say like when they make it 2.2x and say you make it only 5.5x or even 6x which is 3x less than their initial raise, now they can come over the top and just 4bet on you. Or even 4bet jam But if you 3bet big like making it 7000-8000 on a 2200 button raise, now they don't have that option?


What is the standard 3bet size when in the SB and BB when button makes it 2.2x on the button when effective stack size is


1. 30bb
2. 40bb
3. 50bb
4. 60bb
5. 80bb
6. 100bb


I would assume something like


1. 7000
2. 7500
3. 8000
4. 8000
5. 8000 -8500
6. 8000 - 9000



Would this be about right? So you should never be 3betting to anything under 7k? Thus doing it to 5500 or 2.5x would just be foolish because you are giving the other player great pot odds? Also when you are 3betting to 7000 or 8000 here... you should use the same sizing whether you have AA or AK or A3 or 1010 or q9 right? The thing is many times when i play, i dont know what is the standard 3bet size. Back then it would be pot size or close to it. Then after a while i notice players were 3betting very small not even 3x.

Last edited by PaulyJames200x; 03-05-2019 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 03-05-2019, 09:51 PM   #20
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Also when in position... say a player in middle position raises to 2.2x or 2200 with effective stack of 40bb or 40000 chips. If you are in late position and 3bet, what is the minimum size you need to make it? Shoudl it be minimum 3x it so 6600 minimum? Back then i recalled i would see like 2.5x the 3bet size. Like raise 2200... the 3bet would be like 5500 which would give great pot odds to original raiser. Then i notice pplayers would 3bet between 2.5x to 2.75x it. But should you be minimum making it 3x the initial raise in position? I know when in position, you should be 3betting smaller. But if you 3bet 3.5x-4x OOP... then 3betting IP should be minimum 2.75x to 3x? Also i notice lot of player would 3bet IP like 3.5x to 4x even when 30-40bb. Is that too much?


Another example i have would be say someone raises to 2200. You have AJo which is good to 3bet. 40bb effective stack and MP raises and you are in CO or button with AJo. What should be the standard 3bet size with 40bb stacks? What about 60bb? What about 80bb? What about 100bb if you were 3betting it?
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Old 04-15-2019, 02:42 AM   #21
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Well i was watching jeff boski's video when he plays tournaments. I notice he would say things such as cbet 1/3 pot etc. But many times i notice he would cbet 1/2 pot or even larger.


The thing is, is there anything wrong with at least 1/2 pot sizing cbet or larger anymore? Obviously when its a dry board like a 3 9 or k 5 3, we don't need to bet big and a smaller size works. The issue is when you bet so small on the flop and get called, you need to be pretty big on turn and river if you want to put more chips in. Are there players that do not cbet 1/3 pot and do good? Its like players cbet 1/3 pot or less... then 2/3rd pot turn and then overbet river it seems. I mean betting 1/2 pot or larger on flop is still generally fine right? First off, it adds fold equity. And you can build a larger pot.


Example its 100bb effective. You have AcKh and raise 2.5x in mp. Only the bb calls. Flop comes


k 5 2 rainbow

k j 8 two diamonds

a 10 8 two spades



In the first board, there is less to protect since its a dry board. So i understand you can cbet less. But if you bet bigger, you can build a bigger pot. I mean if you bet 1/3 or even 1/4 pot, you get called. Now the turn and river... you going to bet at least 1/2 pot or more right? Now let say you bet big... like 2/3 pot, 2/3 pot and 2/3 pot every street. Well that isn't that big but thats a decent size bet. If you get called on KJ on all 3 streets, that is good. But if you cbet so small, let say 1/4 pot and get called. Now on the turn, you bet 1/2 pot.. then 1/2 pot on river? Sure you can get called all 3 streets... but if you get called all 3 streets here... its less than getting called on 2 streets on flop and turn with 2/3 pot size bets right?


In the next 2 flops, is 1/3 pot size really the standard here? Again, i can understand bet sizing being smaller if say you are 30bb deep or less etc. But when you are 100bb deep, is this bet sizing still correct? I remember i watched that high stakes poker tournament at aria stream and they are very deep... the cbet size rarely if ever was more than 1/3rd pot. You even see 1/4 or 1/5 pot. It was like... no pots are built at all. Like watching paint dry so to speak. But if 1/3 pot is the standard and anything bigger is not good, how do you expect to stack someone deepstack if you only have 2 streets to get value assuming they don't raise you on any of the streets? That is the issue i see with bet sizing so small.
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:40 AM   #22
TheHero'sJourney
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

IF you gangster you just don't bet a lot. When you need to get a big call you bet a lot. When you need them to fold you bet a lot too. A lot of times you don't bet a lot. Cart and mule. Horse and buggy. Doo deedle doo deedle doo.
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Old 04-15-2019, 08:35 PM   #23
Zenjutsu
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
Well i was watching jeff boski's video when he plays tournaments. I notice he would say things such as cbet 1/3 pot etc. But many times i notice he would cbet 1/2 pot or even larger.


The thing is, is there anything wrong with at least 1/2 pot sizing cbet or larger anymore? Obviously when its a dry board like a 3 9 or k 5 3, we don't need to bet big and a smaller size works. The issue is when you bet so small on the flop and get called, you need to be pretty big on turn and river if you want to put more chips in. Are there players that do not cbet 1/3 pot and do good? Its like players cbet 1/3 pot or less... then 2/3rd pot turn and then overbet river it seems. I mean betting 1/2 pot or larger on flop is still generally fine right? First off, it adds fold equity. And you can build a larger pot.


Example its 100bb effective. You have AcKh and raise 2.5x in mp. Only the bb calls. Flop comes


k 5 2 rainbow

k j 8 two diamonds

a 10 8 two spades



In the first board, there is less to protect since its a dry board. So i understand you can cbet less. But if you bet bigger, you can build a bigger pot. I mean if you bet 1/3 or even 1/4 pot, you get called. Now the turn and river... you going to bet at least 1/2 pot or more right? Now let say you bet big... like 2/3 pot, 2/3 pot and 2/3 pot every street. Well that isn't that big but thats a decent size bet. If you get called on KJ on all 3 streets, that is good. But if you cbet so small, let say 1/4 pot and get called. Now on the turn, you bet 1/2 pot.. then 1/2 pot on river? Sure you can get called all 3 streets... but if you get called all 3 streets here... its less than getting called on 2 streets on flop and turn with 2/3 pot size bets right?


In the next 2 flops, is 1/3 pot size really the standard here? Again, i can understand bet sizing being smaller if say you are 30bb deep or less etc. But when you are 100bb deep, is this bet sizing still correct? I remember i watched that high stakes poker tournament at aria stream and they are very deep... the cbet size rarely if ever was more than 1/3rd pot. You even see 1/4 or 1/5 pot. It was like... no pots are built at all. Like watching paint dry so to speak. But if 1/3 pot is the standard and anything bigger is not good, how do you expect to stack someone deepstack if you only have 2 streets to get value assuming they don't raise you on any of the streets? That is the issue i see with bet sizing so small.
Don`t forget about the range of your opponent. If board is k 5 2 rainbow and you opened CO with KQs and opponent defended bb you wanna be betting small, because of couple reasons:

He's probably defending wide range and has a lot of hands with low suited connectors, 5x, 2x, kx with ****e kicker, also some Ax hands with bd fd, so you want to keep them in and potentially get 2 streets of value, maybe sometimes x turn and allowed them to bluff rivers etc it can also induce them to raise as a bluff. it has way more value then betting big and only keeping in stronger range. Also when you do that with strong hands, you can start doing in with hands than missed the board, which protects your range vs opponents
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Old 04-15-2019, 10:10 PM   #24
PaulyJames200x
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

When you say 2 streets of value, say you bet 1/3 pot on flop. Then about how much on turn or river? Because people say you get 2 streets of value but let you bet 1/3 pot and 1/3 pot again. Well someone who bets 3/4 pot on the flop and gets called already got more value than someone betting 2 streets of 1/3 pot right? What about just betting at least 1/2 pot minimum to put pressure?


Also you say you want to bet small with kqs on k 5 2 rainbow. I get that part. But if you feel your opponent has a weak king or 5x etc, how much you betting on turn and river then to get another street of value?
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:47 PM   #25
Zenjutsu
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Re: Modern Day Betsizing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
When you say 2 streets of value, say you bet 1/3 pot on flop. Then about how much on turn or river? Because people say you get 2 streets of value but let you bet 1/3 pot and 1/3 pot again. Well someone who bets 3/4 pot on the flop and gets called already got more value than someone betting 2 streets of 1/3 pot right? What about just betting at least 1/2 pot minimum to put pressure?


Also you say you want to bet small with kqs on k 5 2 rainbow. I get that part. But if you feel your opponent has a weak king or 5x etc, how much you betting on turn and river then to get another street of value?
Usually big 60%-120% depending of opponent. Only betting small on hands that improve his range like Ax in this case.
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