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Small Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of small stakes MTT strategy

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Old 10-07-2017, 08:55 AM   #1
+VLFBERH+T
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Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

€110 buy-in live tournament in Rozvadov (side event to WSOP Circuit event) - but buy-in and live vs online shouldn't matter much, I believe, as it is a "standard" / basic preflop spot.

Blinds are 500/1k/100, I have a stack of about 20k, average around 33k. It folds to me on the button with A8o, both blinds have me covered. I don't have particularly relevant information on the two players still to act, as I was moved to the table not long ago.

I open to 2300 - shoving would be +EV but risking stack for too little gain, I believe. With <15BB left it would be an easy shove, I suppose (?)

SB raises to 6400, BB folds.

I believe I can only shove or fold - which one is better vs an (almost) unknown?

Spoiler:
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Old 10-08-2017, 01:37 PM   #2
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

He might think your making a move so a shove would get the fold but if your wrong your out of the tourney!
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:10 PM   #3
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

what was villains stack?
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:19 PM   #4
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

His stack was bigger than mine (as given, I had a below average stack); I think maybe slightly more than average, say 35k - 40k ... meaning that losing 20k in a single hand would have meant roughly a 50 - 60% loss for him.
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Old 10-10-2017, 03:29 PM   #5
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by +VLFBERH+T View Post
His stack was bigger than mine (as given, I had a below average stack); I think maybe slightly more than average, say 35k - 40k ... meaning that losing 20k in a single hand would have meant roughly a 50 - 60% loss for him.
Shove pre
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:29 PM   #6
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

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Originally Posted by Bdsinc2.0 View Post
Shove pre
For 20BB, isn't that a bit big? Would you have a raise-folding range at that stack size at all, or do you shove your entire range then?
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:08 PM   #7
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

What was BBs stack size?
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:15 PM   #8
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

I think I probably let this go.

You're behind most of his 3b range, especially a typical $100 live 3bet range in the US, and a big dog to most Aces and 88+. Yeah he may have things like KQ and KJ in his range here that you're ahead of, but really not very much.

You may fold out something 99 or A9o to a shove, but probably not much.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:48 PM   #9
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

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Originally Posted by hitchens97 View Post
What was BBs stack size?
Roughly the same as SB's, i.e. around the chip average of 33k, give or take maybe 2k.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:51 PM   #10
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

Thank you hitchens ... still interested if others tend to agree or disagree with Bdsinc2.0 - would you, as a standard, just open-shove there with a 20BB stack?
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:12 PM   #11
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

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Originally Posted by +VLFBERH+T View Post
For 20BB, isn't that a bit big? Would you have a raise-folding range at that stack size at all, or do you shove your entire range then?


I don't shove my entire range. I shove hands like this and some PP's along with KQ, KJ. Obviously this strategy is exploitable but the general population in low stakes live NL tournaments are over folding by a wide margin. Ive had people fold and show me 10's and AQo in the last tournaments I played in pretty much this exact scenario.


If I have a strong read that the blinds are "fit or fold" players I can see opening. But against aggressive regs or passive calling stations, I think shoving is better.

As played, once the SB 3bets hes probably not folding any of his 3b range so I guess I just give it up and wait for a rejam spot.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:05 PM   #12
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

It's definitely an option and EV positive. I think it depends a lot on the table, tendencies, etc. At tough tables I probably shove.
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Old 10-15-2017, 04:04 PM   #13
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Re: Live tournament, button 4-bet shove range vs SB 3-bet

Min open and fold as played.
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