A pure limp UTG range will make money too, the question is will it make more money?

All I'm seeing are a bunch of counter-adjustments which would see the counter-adjuster get stacked like,
which suggests pure limp could be interesting.

No, no it won't.

People have thought about this before. It isn't a novel idea.

Go ahead though, limp away. At the end of the day it's your money.

Maybe come back with some stats over a decent sample size. The proof is in the pudding.

Lmao who the **** opens on a 10 bb stack in a tournament UTG to fold ever??? Should prob not have an open range and jam your whole range instead.

Theres nothing sustantive to anything you're saying, just scare-mongering:
If you're scared of stacking off with a decent pair for 10bb because you may run into 2p+ then MTTs are not for you.

a limp strat would mean we get to VPIP more. Open jam ATo, KJo, 33 UTG would be somewhat bad in several lineups but should/could be profitable limps.

No one cares about this stupid everyone has 10bb scenario. Cause it never happens. It's literally stupid.

Open limping 33 on 10bb's utg is literally awful. It literally has to be the worst option between the 3 being jam, fold, limp. There's no point to limp when you have 10 blinds except a mega rare situation where you MAYBE get aces and want to do something weird and let someone try and catch the flop so they MAY be priced into calling a flop bet/jam.

That said you want majority of your decisions to be raising, reraising or jamming. We want to be calling and trapping at much lower frequencies.

We’d get to see way more flops than you guys are envisioning and once we do we’ll win often, especially when heads up v bb. Plus we have the option to decide who we call off against. ,

33 may not make the cut. All I know is folding ATo/KJo utg for 12bb doesn't feel quite right.

They're basically near the bottom of your jamming range in UTG with 12bb so not sure why it wouldn't feel right folding. These are marginal hands anyways that don't flop very well. KJo works better for reraising since you'll block their 4b range of mostly value ie JJ+ etc. Plus this mystery scenario hasn't even established if there are antes or not also which is a massive factor.

12bb range on snapshove with no ante 9 handed tiered ranking to trim from or expand from the app.


Without ante
99+
ATs+, A5s-A3s, AQo+
KJs+
QJs


WITH ANTE UTG 12 bb 12.5% ante (usually are slightly smaller so can tighten the range a bit if you like).

44+
A8s+, A5s, AJo
K9s+, KQo
Q9s+
J9s+
T9s

I can't quite believe that this thread is still going / is a serious one. It's kind of a basic idea that good poker is aggressive and the reason why is fairly simple - it gives us fold equity. I'm sure it is possible to construct a perfect strategy if we somehow disable the raise button when first in - probably one which is +EV against a low stakes tourney population but we are going in with a disadvantage by abandoning our fold equity - and this is a big thing in low-stakes tournaments - people tend to jam and fold far too tight - especially in later stages - and of course when ICM starts to be a factor it's more important to be the one putting the money in
I'm pretty happy jamming ATo JKo 33 UTG against most tables even if technically they should be folded against optimum calling ranges

It's useless to discuss except to understand the flawed logic better.

Which it's hilarious because even if we remove fold equity from the equation you still want to 3b a decent amount of hands pre in limit just for value anyways that'll be priced into calling another bet usually.

This same concept is what people having to defend blinds is usually.

It also doesn't even account for when we have a hand ATs and make 44 fold preflop when we raise MP and he can't really flat and let the blinds come too of course. Like we literally make a lot of equity on that alone. This is also negated by this strat. It also eliminates our ability to bluff as often and technically profitably due to being imbalanced massively.

First you guys say, that lol small stakes MTT players are so bad (fair). Then you are willing to push a marginal edges. If everyone is too tight then they call you let say 99+, AQ+. Which means you flip against stronger range like 37% of the time. And when ICM is taken into account (and even more if you have true edge which you partially destroy by playing marginal situations) your play is -EV.

Ok why I even tell you this? Because your play is marginally incorrect, and same time prevent better players to push their higher edges. And make whole tournament boring push/fold fest like in every hand.

What is EV let say QJs all in from UTG. Like less than 1% of buy-in? You need 10% to be even breakeven player and you should crush small stakes MTT not survive if you value your time at all.

This is pretty much why I hate poker training sites. They tell you that poker is a game with small edges, which you should always push. It's obviously is not. It's game where, if you play professionally, have to find big edges or rake is going to kill you. Maybe you can 16 table and hate your life while you barely survive in ecosystem by looking after tiny edges against opponents who have put 100 times less time to play / analyze poker. Better tactic would be to trust that you are not ****** and can beat novices inside out in PF and later streets.

I play 18-man turbos with an ROI of 11%.

That is after rake of course, so I'm beating the players for much more than that.

I'm beating the players for 5.7bb/100 at 0-10bb stack size.

I'm playing 27/26.8 so I'm doing it by shoving these 'marginal hands' as you call them.

I bet a chunk of that is not just picking up blinds and antes but also picking up the limps from all the loose/passives.

Yawn.

You may have a point about not jamming some marginal hands if we have an edge - but if I don't jam QJs I'm sure as hell not going to limp/call or limp/fold with it. Both are going to be -EV You yourself said that you jam the weakest hands that you're going to play.

loose passive strategy can work when we're deep because people can make such big mistakes but not at 10BB - people are not going to stop shoving just because you think it's boring

Maybe I start to limp from all positions when 10bb deep. Need to think it through. Not easy to implement, but I am pretty sure it's much better than push/fold. Could be that Button / CO limp 10bb deep is bad.

Guys he wants to play unbalanced exploitive poker. Just let him. His ego won't let him listen to better players. It's no use, this is just funny at this point. If I were a mod I would lock the thread but alas here we are.

That's the thing with the internet and people in general. No one's going to change their mind. At least in the conversation.

It can be useful to the audience of people reading as to why it's terrible to limp though. Teaching can also be a useful exercise for one's self.

Also pure entertainment value. This is better than BBV.

BBV used to be so good tho honestly.

Dude, I think there is a Stars Sati Hyper Turbo 3 x rebuy that starts at 10bb, I totally agree with you though on the merit of the discussion. Without a real hand history it's really hard at times to just give advice on situations. LOL limping anything UTG with 10bb's.