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Old 08-10-2018, 07:02 AM   #1
zahrem
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ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

PokerStars - €18+€2|60000/120000 Ante 24000 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 10.94 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
SB: 11.52 BB (VPIP: 7.14, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
BB: 5.99 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
UTG: 8.65 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 21.05, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
Hero (UTG+1): 9.71 BB
MP: 11.87 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 14)
CO: 6.41 BB (VPIP: 14.39, PFR: 12.90, 3Bet Preflop: 4.08, Hands: 142)

7 players post ante of 0.2 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.9 BB) Hero has A 5

fold, Hero raises to 9.51 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 11.32 BB and is all-in, fold

Flop: (21.41 BB, 2 players) 6 T 9

Turn: (21.41 BB, 2 players) 6

River: (21.41 BB, 2 players) 5

Spoiler:


19 players remaining payout structure=> 1º: 4960 2º: 3540 3º:2250 4º: 1800 5º:1280 6º: 910 7º:650 8º: 460 9º: 330 10-11º: 230 12-13º: 170 14-17º: 140 18-23º: 120


Sorry for these **** questions but I only know how to use the ICM tools on final tables, can someone come up with an answer on this spot ? I felt like A5s was too strong and blinds were to big to let this spot go. All comments apreciated. It's a hyper btw.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:54 AM   #2
cizixap
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

a couple of things..
- ICM is only applicable on the final table.
- You mentioned A5s is "too strong to fold", but let's assume that CO or BB jam with any Ace-x and check equity of A5s versus this range. It's 42%.
- I would fold.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:43 AM   #3
zahrem
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

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Originally Posted by cizixap View Post
a couple of things..
- ICM is only applicable on the final table.
- You mentioned A5s is "too strong to fold", but let's assume that CO or BB jam with any Ace-x and check equity of A5s versus this range. It's 42%.
- I would fold.
1: Do you mean ICM calculations are only possible in final tables ? or are you saying we should neglect ICM outside final tables?

2: I honestly dont think at my stakes CO is jamming any Ax

Last edited by zahrem; 08-10-2018 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:54 AM   #4
zahrem
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

Using your logic, I think you forget the times everyone folds. I think ICM must change our range a bit in this spot because if there is no ICM, A5s is a shove 100% of the time with 10 BBs from my position.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:55 AM   #5
cizixap
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

Quote:
Originally Posted by zahrem View Post
1: Do you mean ICM calculations are only possible in final tables ? or are you saying we should neglect ICM outside final tables?

2: I honestly dont think at my stakes CO or BB are jamming any Ax
1. EV outside of the FT is measured in chips(no ICM). EV on the FT is measured in % of the prize pool(ICM).
2. Okay. Anyways if you say that A5s is too strong then it's reasonable to ask - against what range? For example, what do you think BB calls AI with?
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:58 AM   #6
zahrem
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

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Originally Posted by cizixap View Post
1. EV outside of the FT is measured in chips(no ICM). EV on the FT is measured in % of the prize pool(ICM).
2. Okay. Anyways if you say that A5s is too strong then it's reasonable to ask - against what range? For example, what do you think BB calls AI with?
I think he's calling 40% even tho he should clearly call more.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:14 PM   #7
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

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Originally Posted by zahrem View Post
I think he's calling 40% even tho he should clearly call more.
BB IS calling all Ax btw, I didnt pay attention to stack sizes in my previous comment.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:27 PM   #8
cizixap
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

Quote:
Originally Posted by zahrem View Post
I think he's calling 40% even tho he should clearly call more.
Ok, A5s against 40%(Skalnsky-Karlson) is just a little bit better than a coin flip. I am not sure that it could be called "too strong";

http://www.power-equilab.com
Equity Win Tie
UTG+1 52.18% 48.04% 4.14% { A5s }
BB 47.82% 43.68% 4.14% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T9s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, JTo }
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:32 PM   #9
zahrem
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

Quote:
Originally Posted by cizixap View Post
Ok, A5s against 40%(Skalnsky-Karlson) is just a little bit better than a coin flip. I am not sure that it could be called "too strong";

http://www.power-equilab.com
Equity Win Tie
UTG+1 52.18% 48.04% 4.14% { A5s }
BB 47.82% 43.68% 4.14% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q5s+, J8s+, T9s, A2o+, K2o+, Q9o+, JTo }

Thats my Eq when called. You ignore the fact that the shove can go through. I'm basically talking about the EV of the A5s shove.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:08 PM   #10
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

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Originally Posted by zahrem View Post
Thats my Eq when called. You ignore the fact that the shove can go through. I'm basically talking about the EV of the A5s shove.
then just install HRC and put the hand history into it. I'm done here.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:01 PM   #11
zahrem
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

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Originally Posted by cizixap View Post
then just install HRC and put the hand history into it. I'm done here.
HRC doesnt take into account ICM aproaching final table bubble. I repeat, 19 players left, and you post my Eq vs BB when called like it means something, you proceed with dl HRC and end with Im done here <= If you dont know the answer, dont post. As simple as that.
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Old 08-10-2018, 02:32 PM   #12
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

Quote:
Originally Posted by cizixap View Post
ICM is only applicable on the final table
Completely disagree with this. There is ICM at every point in a tournament (as long as it’s not winner-takes-all) whether it be on the FT or in the first hand. ICM effects are generally the greatest on or around FT and on the direct money bubble. It’s just that the effects of ICM in the early stages are so negligible that it’s practically the same as chipEV.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:23 PM   #13
oldgoat
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

Yes there clearly is an ICM factor but not yet huge - can't calculate it OP but I think it's a good shove esp given humungous antes
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:10 PM   #14
zahrem
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

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Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
Yes there clearly is an ICM factor but not yet huge - can't calculate it OP but I think it's a good shove esp given humungous antes
Aight, atleast I know it's close. How would you calculate it?
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Old 08-12-2018, 07:50 PM   #15
YouAreAwesome
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

Do you have access to all 19 stack sizes? If you do can you type them into this:
http://www.holdemresources.net/mttcalculator ?

Hmm actually, does that even help ...
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Old 08-12-2018, 11:02 PM   #16
Whia
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Re: ICM question. A5s shove from Low Jack

It's a good shove.

I don't know how you calculate ICM with 19 people left but I'd say it's not something you should concern yourself with too much at this stage when you make a shove. People call way too tight most of the time when they are this deep in a tournament, so a shove such as A5s becomes much more valuable as it will probably have more Fold equity then it should have.

Of course, you should be mindful of pay jumps so if you got a Jam that's very marginal and you only need 1 more guy to bust to get a jump we might want to pass that spot up. Just don't start folding hands such as this as it's indeed way too strong.
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