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Early Stage TP OOP Early Stage TP OOP

06-09-2018 , 04:13 PM
PokerStars - 30/60 Ante 7 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 9,972
MP: 9,942
Hero (MP+1): 10,028
MP+2: 9,993
CO: 9,882
BTN: 9,257
SB: 10,989
BB: 9,972
UTG: 9,972

9 players post ante of 7, SB posts SB 30, BB posts BB 60

Pre Flop: (pot: 153) Hero has A Q

UTG raises to 150, fold, fold, Hero raises to 450, fold, CO calls 450, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 300

Flop: (1,503, 3 players) 2 A 3
UTG checks, Hero bets 950, CO calls 950, fold

Turn: (3,403, 2 players) 8
Hero bets 2,200, CO calls 2,200

River: (7,803, 2 players) 9
Hero ???

Just 4 Hands -> no reads!!!

After the Turn call I was scared about AK in Villains Range.
I don't think a lot of Villains call this 3Bet vs. UTG with AJ or less.
Maybe AQ o/s calls.
QQ+ probably 4Bet.
AK call or 4Bet.

Board is very dry. 22, 33, 88 are also in his range.

So, I can't see much hands who calls a river bet that I will have beat.

What is my River action?
Bet/fold?
Check/call?
Check/fold?
Push?
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-11-2018 , 04:51 PM
First of all, I think you should consider folding pre-flop. AQo is frequently dominated vs an UTG opening range and it has very little playability post-flop.

As played I would bet smaller on the flop, probably around 1/3 pot. This is because this flop heavily favors our range so we want to bet small with a lot of hands. As well this has the effect of keeping many weak hands in our opponent's range.

The turn bet is good, once again might go a little bit smaller just to keep V's range wide and because we aren't really scared of any river cards.

On the river I don't think you have a choice but to go all in for less then a pot sized bet. AQ is very rarely beat here, and while it is true that AK is a possible hand V could have, ATs and AJ are also hands that could be in Vs range that will also call river. A hand like JJ or TT could also be possible if villain is especially sticky. You are going to be beat sometimes when you value bet this river, but you have enough equity vs V's overall calling range to make this shove profitable IMO.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-11-2018 , 10:44 PM
This flop doesn't heavily favor us since we likely fold A2s/A3s (since you want to fold AQo) and it doesn't favor us regardless really. In fact it's prob fine to just check the flop to protect our checking range. We block backdoor club hands as well and QJ/KQ etc turning gutshots on a few turns. There's no reason to not just slow down when we're nearly 200 blinds deep and have a single pair.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-12-2018 , 01:36 PM
maybe you can just call or fold pré flop because the UTG raises shows he has a strong hand raising in that position.i will checks the flop and if UTG bets again i would call,and wait for his next action.if he checks i would check behind to see what CO gonna do.if he bets a big size i would fold.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-14-2018 , 05:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer_kill
In fact it's prob fine to just check the flop to protect our checking range. There's no reason to not just slow down when we're nearly 200 blinds deep and have a single pair.
This is solid MTT advice right here. You don't always have to c-bet after 3-betting preflop.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-14-2018 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chazmoneypoker
This is solid MTT advice right here. You don't always have to c-bet after 3-betting preflop.
That's true but we should be c-betting the vast majority of the time because we have such a range advantage on this board. In all honesty, c-betting small with 100% of our range in this spot would be a solid strategy since then there is no need to protect a non-existant checking range.

As well checking on this board allows both players to realize 100% of their equity for free, as well as missing out on lots of value since our hand is very rarely beat. This is a hand we should be happy to go for three streets of value with.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-14-2018 , 03:28 PM
I dunno what equity they're going to realize when we have such a "range advantage" according to you. The flop is A23 rainbow, it doesn't get much dryer and we allow UTG to maybe stab turn and we can more safely bet turn to allow us to get to showdown. We don't really have that great a board advantage since our range is likely AQo+/99+/AJs so we don't even have 222/333 here but CO can. So more often we just have like 99-KK and some AQ hands etc.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-14-2018 , 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer_kill
I dunno what equity they're going to realize when we have such a "range advantage" according to you. The flop is A23 rainbow, it doesn't get much dryer and we allow UTG to maybe stab turn and we can more safely bet turn to allow us to get to showdown. We don't really have that great a board advantage since our range is likely AQo+/99+/AJs so we don't even have 222/333 here but CO can. So more often we just have like 99-KK and some AQ hands etc.
We absolutely have a range advantage on this board, neither opponent can have the nuts, AA, which we can have nor can either opponent have AK which we can have. hands like 22 and 33 are going to make up a very small proportion of either villain's ranges. Most of the time when they continue in the hand they will have a weaker AX or some kind of underpair like JJ or TT.

In terms of realizing equity, a hand like 44 or 65 has a 25% chance of outdrawing against us. Why would we let these hands see the turn card for free. This effect is even more pronounced when we are multiway. If both players have underpairs like 88 or 99, combined they have 20% equity against us. Why would we want to let these hands see a free turn card and have the chance to outdraw us? By c-betting small on this board, we can extract value from these types of hands and also keep the CO and UTG ranges wide. Balancing our checking range also isn't that important in three-way pots because we share the responsibility of defending with another player.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-14-2018 , 11:30 PM
We don't have a range advantage since co can have AA and def AK. People shouldn't be 4b when they're a billion blinds deep. Esp when it's hard to balance it. Since we can't have 22/33 and they can it's ok to slow down. As I said more of our ranges misses and checks and some is ok (ak/aq) and we have aces and then tt-kk and maybe sometimes KQs if we wanna be looser pre. So most our range wants to check so we can sometimes check our AQ and sometimes bet them. If we bet we should go smaller tho.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-15-2018 , 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer_kill
We don't have a range advantage since co can have AA and def AK. People shouldn't be 4b when they're a billion blinds deep. Esp when it's hard to balance it. Since we can't have 22/33 and they can it's ok to slow down. As I said more of our ranges misses and checks and some is ok (ak/aq) and we have aces and then tt-kk and maybe sometimes KQs if we wanna be looser pre. So most our range wants to check so we can sometimes check our AQ and sometimes bet them. If we bet we should go smaller tho.
I definitely agree that we should bet smaller on this board. I don't agree that people shouldn't 4-bet when they are deep though, especially when there is a raise and a 3-bet in front of you. If you have a population read that people like cold calling 3-bets with strong hands then I concede your point, but CO should absolutely 4-bet AK and AA.

A 4-bet range can also easily be balanced with hands like AQs-ATs and KQs. Calling with AA would be pretty bad here because you allow the UTG player to see a flop cheaply and increase the chances your aces will be cracked multiway. As well you lose a bunch of value when you call AA instead of 4-betting since by 4-betting you put more money into the pot with the preflop nuts. I'm not saying CO never calls the 3-bet with AA and AK, I'm saying it would be a big mistake if they did.

I just think by checking this board we miss out on a ton of value from weaker Ax and underpairs that the CO and UTG player mostly have. As well in multiway pots protecting your equity is more important since the two players combined ranges have more equity against you. Checking on this board also doesn't induce many bluffs since the board is super dry and people don't bluff very often in multiway pots. Also, neither CO or UTG should technically have 22 or 33 in their range if they're playing good poker since those hands are too weak to open from early position and too weak to cold call a 3-bet with.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-15-2018 , 02:20 AM
It's pretty bad if they were to 4b AQ and stuff here when this deep. It's ok to just not have a 4b range at all when you're like 170 blinds deep.

If the board is dry then what bluffs do we have then? I don't get why people would 4b AQ and not flat 22/33 when they're mega deep. You'd way rather have 22/33 than AQ since you aren't stacking off on single pair hands and sets play better deeper.
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-15-2018 , 10:40 AM
If there was just a raise and a call then yes you should 100% flat pairs like 22 or 33. When there is a raise and a 3-bet and we call, we're not guarenteed to get to see a flop with our small pocket pair. The UTG player could easily come over the top and 4-bet as could any of the players sitting behind the cutoff. Another problem with 22-33 this deep is they're the pairs that are most likely to get into set over set scenarios where you're getting stacked 100%.

4-betting AQ isn't done for value in the example above, it's done as a bluff. If we were HU then I would understand not having a 4-betting range, but multiway cold calling a 3-bet is pretty bad. We let the UTG player see a flop for super cheap and open ourselves up to squeezes from behind. You're right that we don't have many bluffs on this board which is why I'm in favor of betting small since when we bet small we can have a higher value to bluff ratio. Hands like KQcc would work well as bluffs in this spot since they have backdoor flush and straight draws. You still haven't explained what the problem is with having a 4-bet range IP in the CO's spot. What is the disadvantage in getting more value with your good hands and getting your opponents to fold better hands preflop?
Early Stage TP OOP Quote
06-16-2018 , 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by killer_kill
This flop doesn't heavily favor us since we likely fold A2s/A3s (since you want to fold AQo) and it doesn't favor us regardless really. In fact it's prob fine to just check the flop to protect our checking range. We block backdoor club hands as well and QJ/KQ etc turning gutshots on a few turns. There's no reason to not just slow down when we're nearly 200 blinds deep and have a single pair.
I think i like ideas of both of you guys

i like cbet about 40% as you can get value from any worse ace or some middle pair (?) ; i mean , i think there are more worse hands that are going to call our cbet than better hands that beat us

But OTT as you say we should slow down and not go crazy with our TP ; so i would just check or bet small trying pot control a little bit
Early Stage TP OOP Quote

      
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