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Confusing 3 bet on the flop Confusing 3 bet on the flop

10-17-2018 , 10:02 PM
PokerStars, $3.92 + $0.48 - Hold'em No Limit - 125/250 (30 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG: 3,857 (15 bb)
UTG+1: 14,412 (58 bb)
MP: 5,362 (21 bb)
MP+1: 5,290 (21 bb)
LP: 8,809 (35 bb)
CO: 5,316 (21 bb)
BU: 2,147 (9 bb)
SB: 4,660 (19 bb)
BB (Hero): 17,722 (71 bb)

Pre-Flop: (645) Hero is BB with 3 3
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to 500, 6 players fold, Hero calls 250

Flop: (1,395) J 6 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets 698, Hero raises to 1,619, UTG+1 raises to 2,540

Hero?

Really not sure what to do here.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-18-2018 , 02:04 AM
First of all ask yourself why did you raised his flopbet? Were you value betting or bluffing? Iy you were bluffing, jusf fold, if you were value betting, look at villain´s range and figure out which part of his range will continue after your raise and is he ever bluffing in this spot and if he is, with which part of his range.

IMHO i don´t like the flop raise, even villains bluffs have enough equitty to you, so I would fold this OTF. You are OOP with hand that has very little potential to improve, and you have other parts of your range with which you can continue OTF, such as flushdraws, backdoor straightdraws with at least one over, top pairs, etc. If you are bluffing with 33, you are probably bluffing way to much in this spot. You have all the 6x in your range and villain has almost none considering the stack sizes on the table, so I would raise only sixes and some flushdraws in this spot without any specific reads on my opponent.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-18-2018 , 02:23 AM
id x/c otf. not sure what's the purpose of x/r on this board vs EP range, what to we want to achieve?
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-18-2018 , 11:02 AM
Easy fold as played. But as others have said, the x/r was bad. You need to x/r boards that are good for your defending range, which generally means low-mid connected cards.

Oh and x/r was way too small.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-18-2018 , 08:41 PM
Well 33 is pretty hard to play on a lot of turns and rivers and withe the flush draw as well I x/r to protect my hand hoping to take it down on the flop. Is this a bad play and if so why?
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-18-2018 , 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltencity
Well 33 is pretty hard to play on a lot of turns and rivers and withe the flush draw as well I x/r to protect my hand hoping to take it down on the flop. Is this a bad play and if so why?
Generally speaking paired flops are terrible for x/r bluffs because you can only represent a narrow range of very strong hands, and you wouldn't actually x/r those hands. In your hand, you likely wouldn't x/r JJ or 6x - you would slowplay those hands. So a x/r on a paired flop looks bluffy.

Additionally, it narrows the range of hands you can rep on turn cards. So if your x/r gets called it is very difficult to barrel your opponent off his hand.

Compare J66 to a flop like 762 for example. That flop is much better for your BB defense range, and there are lots of turn cards you can barrel because they will be threatening to villain. You can barrel any 4/5/8/9 and rep a straight.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Maul
Generally speaking paired flops are terrible for x/r bluffs because you can only represent a narrow range of very strong hands, and you wouldn't actually x/r those hands. In your hand, you likely wouldn't x/r JJ or 6x - you would slowplay those hands. So a x/r on a paired flop looks bluffy.

Additionally, it narrows the range of hands you can rep on turn cards. So if your x/r gets called it is very difficult to barrel your opponent off his hand.

Compare J66 to a flop like 762 for example. That flop is much better for your BB defense range, and there are lots of turn cards you can barrel because they will be threatening to villain. You can barrel any 4/5/8/9 and rep a straight.
But I'm not really trying to bluff, I'm just trying to protect my hand.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 02:30 AM
okay, let's say UTG+1 opens the following range:
55+, A2s+, AJo+, K9s+, KQo, Q9s+, J9s+, 87s-T9s
He c-bets 1/2 PBS, generally it means you can rule out the weakest hands from c-bet range.
let's say he c-bets with all pairs, trips, quads, fh's, fd's, overcard + bdfd + bdsd(QTdd, KTdd, AKdd, etc...)
what hands from this range do you hope to fold out by raising PBS?
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltencity
But I'm not really trying to bluff, I'm just trying to protect my hand.
Ok and villain has told you he will be continuing, aggressively. At this point it should occur to you that it is not your pot to protect, villain recognises he has significant equity if not utterly crushing you and will not relinquish it. So if the one benefit of raising is a no go, I think you know what to do next.

Basically the solvers will take smaller pairs and raise at some freq on this type of board when shallow, but don't bloat the pot at this depth oop with baby pairs if what to do when they 3b truly confuses.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 03:24 AM
I think the flop raise with 33 is ok sometimes since you have a lot more 6's in the BB as opposed to his UTG+1. Just fold now though prob. Was there any timing tells? Did he insta click it back or what.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 06:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cizixap
okay, let's say UTG+1 opens the following range:
55+, A2s+, AJo+, K9s+, KQo, Q9s+, J9s+, 87s-T9s
He c-bets 1/2 PBS, generally it means you can rule out the weakest hands from c-bet range.
let's say he c-bets with all pairs, trips, quads, fh's, fd's, overcard + bdfd + bdsd(QTdd, KTdd, AKdd, etc...)
what hands from this range do you hope to fold out by raising PBS?
Sorry I don't know what PBS means and I thought paired boards are generally safer for hands like Ax so wouldn't paired boards be c-bet more often?
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bearer
Ok and villain has told you he will be continuing, aggressively. At this point it should occur to you that it is not your pot to protect, villain recognises he has significant equity if not utterly crushing you and will not relinquish it. So if the one benefit of raising is a no go, I think you know what to do next.

Basically the solvers will take smaller pairs and raise at some freq on this type of board when shallow, but don't bloat the pot at this depth oop with baby pairs if what to do when they 3b truly confuses.
So then what kind of flop am I looking for when I play a hand like 33? Because I always thought paired boards were relatively safe for weak pocket pairs.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltencity
Sorry I don't know what PBS means and I thought paired boards are generally safer for hands like Ax so wouldn't paired boards be c-bet more often?
PBS = Pot Sized Bet. He bets half of the pot and I call it 1/2 PBS, it's kinda standard term. As for his c-bet range, I just make an educated guess that he bets 1/3 of the pot with the whole range or 1/2 of the pot with the strongest hands/some bluffs like overcards+bdfd+bdsd.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltencity
So then what kind of flop am I looking for when I play a hand like 33? Because I always thought paired boards were relatively safe for weak pocket pairs.
You're not entitled to look for anything. You paid 1BB getting amazing pot odds closing the betting. EP paid double and risked being raised and not even getting to see a flop. As a result his range is far stronger then yours and you don't need to, will not, and are not entitled to win the pot much.

So there are not many good flops for 33 but it doesn't matter. On this one you should mostly be calling and folding turns or just folding flop.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 09:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltencity
But I'm not really trying to bluff, I'm just trying to protect my hand.
Regardless, you want him to fold. And x/r on paired boards are more likely to get called.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-19-2018 , 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltencity
So then what kind of flop am I looking for when I play a hand like 33? Because I always thought paired boards were relatively safe for weak pocket pairs.
You're looking to flop a set.

Like I said in my other post, I would only consider making a x/r with 33 on low connected flops. And my plan would be to barrel any threatening turn card.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote
10-27-2018 , 06:28 AM
I think you should play far more passively on that flop. In general vrs a couple players small pocks are "set or surrender" in my opinion and especially once the board pairs, I do not like the hand at all. If I am currently ahead, it is probably not by that much and if not, I am drawing far too thin to continue.

I'd take cheap turn and river cards if they were offered (because hitting the 3 is a super sneaky hand that can be paid off well) but would not inflate the pot and would bail if other insisted on inflating it.
Confusing 3 bet on the flop Quote

      
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