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Small Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of small stakes MTT strategy

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Old 02-13-2018, 03:23 PM   #1
momo_uk
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Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

I want to know what to do in this very common, yet complex spot. Basically, I'm playing in a smaller buyin where people are just generally more passive, which alters decision-making to some extent.

OTTH.. blinds 500/1k (middle stages), stacks: UTG: 20k, Hero: 30k, V: 18k

UTG limps (yeah),
Hero (UTG+1) looks down at 8c8d and raises to 3200,
V (CO) just calls,
UTG calls.

Flop (~12.5k): J74cc
UTG checks, Hero bets 4275, V calls, UTG folds

Turn (~21k): Tc
Hero checks, V shoves 10500, Hero folds


Am I making any mistakes here? Vs a UTG limp, I'm not sure if 88 is a raise UTG+1 but I want to get it HU IP vs the limper and avoid a LP raise/shove if I limp, so I decide to raise.

Once V calls in LP, I think he mostly has pairs upto 99, broadway type cards (even AQ, as these players are passive sometimes with stronger holdings too) with a tiny possibility of slowplayed monsters like AA-QQ, but it's unlikely. This is precisely why I decide to cbet flop since it shouldn't hit him much except for Jx and the other UTG limper would let me know where I stand by calling or folding the flop. I don't need to go too big to see where I stand.

Once V calls my flop cbet, I'm not sure if I'm up against Jx or a random AQ/66 type hand that decided to peel flop and semi-bluff turn.

Thoughts?

Last edited by momo_uk; 02-13-2018 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 05:17 PM   #2
UntimelyBluff
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

Probably best to just limp with the 88 here instead of trying to isolate, you're honestly better off re-raising with a hand like KQss because you can flop a lot of different combo draws and thus semi bluff you're opponent out of the hand. With a mid pocket pair you're left guessing if you don't hit your set, and you can play the hand pretty straight forward and avoid a lot of high risk scenarios.

If you really want to raise pre flop go bigger, or all in if you have most stacks covered. Unlikely the UTG is limping with a hand worse than yours so all you have to worry about is something else picking up a hand or getting frisky with over cards.

As for the hand after the flop you played it fine, took 1 stab and then shut it down on the turn. Most people get stubborn and just hold on to their medium pairs like they're gold lol.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:19 PM   #3
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

I wouldn't raise behind either, or I would raise a bit bigger. As played after flop is fine just OOP nothing you can really do on the turn.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:59 PM   #4
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

As the table is described as passive, I like a jam pre. People will be calling your raise a lot. And overcards to 88 flop more than half the time, leaving you with a guess as to what to do if you c-bet. Also stacks are shallow so you don't have a lot of room to maneuver postflop. Finally any solver like Hold'em Resources Calculator or whatever would say this is a profitable shove.

At a table where people are folding a lot pre, I can get on board with a non-jam iso raise here.

Also, I'm not crazy about the cbet. Again you described the table as passive, so you don't have to worry too much about getting bluffed by the in position player. Next your pocket eights block half of the combos of 78 suited . So getting called by worse will be difficult. Most of your opponents continuing range will be draws with good equity and better pairs like 99, 10 10, & Jx.

As played, the turn fold seems fine. The flush draw got there. J10 made 2 pair. Some gutshots got there too. It doesn't feel like he's bluffing either.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:06 AM   #5
momo_uk
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntimelyBluff View Post
Probably best to just limp with the 88 here
Quote:
Originally Posted by toki View Post
I wouldn't raise behind either, or I would raise a bit bigger.
I'm okay with overlimping but then, aren't we giving room for late positions to shove/steal all the dead money? What do we do if someone behind makes a 5x raise or shoves?
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:09 AM   #6
momo_uk
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

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Originally Posted by SolidGrinder View Post
As the table is described as passive, I like a jam pre.
Jam 30 bbs pre over 1 limper? Remember there are stacks behind that very well cover me. Agreed I'll get a lot of folds, but this just seems like a gross overshove. My cutoff is usually 20bbs or lower atleast.

I just don't see the merit of risking my tournament life to win 2.5 bbs with a hand that's mostly always behind or at best racing when I get any call.
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Old 02-14-2018, 05:52 AM   #7
Colin_Piddle
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

Check flop
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Old 02-14-2018, 02:46 PM   #8
Darth_Maul
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

Jamming pre is super high variance and since utg limper has 20bb, you don't have as much fold equity as you think. He might be willing to call off with a decent chunk of his range, and you're not in good shape against that range.

Raising is also tricky against a tighter utg limping range when you only have 30bb (and 20bb effective against the limper). It will put you in a low SPR spot, which is very uncomfortable with a middle pair.

Limping behind risks a shove from a shorter stack behind.

Stack sizes make this especially awkward so I think I limp behind and reassess if someone behind makes a move.

As played I check the flop.

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Old 02-15-2018, 12:08 AM   #9
momo_uk
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin_Piddle View Post
Check flop
Care to explain why?

We basically will have no idea where we stand when V decides to stab once we check. Or the turn brings another over/scare-card and they catch up with hands that would have folded the flop.
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Old 02-15-2018, 12:11 AM   #10
momo_uk
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
Raising is also tricky against a tighter utg limping range

As played I check the flop.
I don't think these players have a tight UTG limping range. He could have some garbage for all I know. They tend to play stronger hands much more straight-forward and wouldn't limp them.

What's your reasoning to check flop? We basically will have no idea where we stand when V decides to stab once we check. Or the turn brings another over/scare-card and they catch up with hands that would have folded the flop.
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Old 02-15-2018, 01:52 PM   #11
Darth_Maul
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
I don't think these players have a tight UTG limping range. He could have some garbage for all I know. They tend to play stronger hands much more straight-forward and wouldn't limp them.
Yes but even weak players know to play a stronger range from utg so his limping range is still going to be relatively tight. Much tighter than if he open limped from MP, for example.

Quote:
What's your reasoning to check flop? We basically will have no idea where we stand when V decides to stab once we check. Or the turn brings another over/scare-card and they catch up with hands that would have folded the flop.
You have a hand that can't get multiple streets of value and you're facing 2 opponents on a pretty wet board, so you're going to get called often.

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Old 02-15-2018, 02:33 PM   #12
momo_uk
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
You have a hand that can't get multiple streets of value and you're facing 2 opponents on a pretty wet board, so you're going to get called often.
I'm not trying to get "multiple streets" here. I just want to take it down here.

What do you do if you check and they decide to bet? I could very easily get bluffed off the best hand.
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Old 02-15-2018, 04:31 PM   #13
Darth_Maul
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

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Originally Posted by momo_uk View Post
I'm not trying to get "multiple streets" here. I just want to take it down here.
Thus the second half of my response. I don't think your chances of taking it down on the flop are very high.

Quote:
What do you do if you check and they decide to bet? I could very easily get bluffed off the best hand.
Call or fold depending on the size of the bet. You might get bluffed off the best hand, yes. But you don't have to win every single pot you're in, and you're not entitled to win this one just because you raised pre. Sometimes you just have to give up on a pot.


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Old 02-16-2018, 01:16 AM   #14
Madsaac
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

These types of games there isn't much fold equity pre so maybe a limp is okay.

As played, not sure about checking the flop, that's bit soft, you raise pre and check to a player with only 15k left on this board?

What about jamming the flop? Like you said he hasn't really hit this board. I think your small bet complicates things. Need to protect your vulnerable hand.
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Old 02-16-2018, 09:35 AM   #15
Darth_Maul
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Re: Common MTT spot: lost with medium PP after flop cbet gets called

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Originally Posted by Madsaac View Post
These types of games there isn't much fold equity pre so maybe a limp is okay.

As played, not sure about checking the flop, that's bit soft, you raise pre and check to a player with only 15k left on this board?

What about jamming the flop? Like you said he hasn't really hit this board. I think your small bet complicates things. Need to protect your vulnerable hand.
2 opponents on the flop.

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