We open 88 off 26bb, Villain 3-bets off a 40bb stack, and a Weak Fish in the BB cold calls the 3-bet off 30bb stack.

3-bet Villain was loose-ish mediocre reg and capable of 3-betting light. (He had just 3-bet 83os BB vs the SB raise a few hands earlier, and showed)

What is the bottom range here for 4-bet shoving in general, given the 3-bet and cold call?

In this situation, I felt I should have 4-bet shoved given the dead money in the pot, but I really didn't want to get it in flipping/crushed and potentially bust, when I was sitting at a table that was exceptionally weak/spewy.



Blinds: 9,000/18,000

Dealt to Hero [8 8]
skulpert: folds
eduardoschil: folds
Hero: raises to 36,000
orusus10: folds
Aguinho: raises 117,600
DanSark: folds
The+EvClown: folds
donMEE: calls 99600
Hero: calls 81600

*** FLOP *** [3 K Q]
donMEE: checks
Hero: checks
Aguinho: checks

*** TURN *** [6]
donMEE: checks
Hero: checks
Aguinho: bets 170910
donMEE: folds
Hero: folds

Indeed, you can't really call 11bb off of a 26bb effective stack with 88. The decision you have after the 3bet really is shove or fold and as you said it : "don't want to get it in flipping/crushed and potentially bust, when I was sitting at a table that was exceptionally weak/spewy".
Also there is no dead money yet on the pot except for the blinds and antes. if you shove it can go call call and face 2 opponents with 88.

I wouldn't risk it. Fold and wait for a better spot.

You picked the worst option by far, that's for sure.

You can get it in flipping or crushed if the flipping portion significantly outweighs the crushing.

Yeah apologies I phrased that part poorly.

What I meant is, this likely would not have been a value 4bet shove, and I didn't want to take on the variance of shoving and being maybe a 70-30 dog against either of their ranges that would call a 4bet shove (TT+,AK) especially, at a very soft table when we are very deep and maybe the Big Blind cold call is trapping aswell?

Fish cold calls a 3-bet, you should be 4-bet shoving there most of the time. If you really think you have some massive edge at the table, you can fold and avoid the variance. But sometimes poker players over estimate their edge.

Use a hand converter next time too. Way easier for people to read and give feedback.

I think it's either a fold or a shove too. Calling is by far the worst option. I thing most of the times when people cold call like that on the BB they are holding hands like JJ/TT, JTs T9s etc. Maybe QQ at best?

I would shove here, the FE you have here is astronomical. You already said button is very loose so most of his range folds here especially when there is player behind him, and weak fish most of the times just shoves the hands he would call 4bet with. Therefore fire away.

I really like 4bet shoving in situations like this because of the light 3betting range of the villain and the effective-dead-money of the fishy big blind

How wide is the 3bettor; you said he is capable of 3betting light but i would be a little worried that he is 3betting given that he just showed a 3bet bluff and we know he is a thinking player

The other issue is how loose is the big blinds flatting range vs. an open and a 3bet is; the wider it is the more i like shoving because hell fold more often to out 4bet and we deny him equity

Also how narrow is is cold 4betting range; like would he flat with TT, JJ and QQ because he is afraid of a cooler or of an ace hitting the flop. If so i like folding more because he wont be folding those combinations to our 4bet and those combinations obviously have us crushed

Yeah 4bet GII is cool here. Calling is atrocious.

You won't believe how light these coldcallers will be sometimes. He can have two suited unders.

3bettor clearly a fish with automuck disengaged showing down preflop BvB bluffs as if he accomplished something.

Some pathetic nits will cold call like TT here and go cry to mommy when the inevitable 4bet comes in and fold like lawn furniture.

This hand is interesting because you unblock the hands you don't want to see (overpairs ) AND the ones you do want to see (Bwys, Ax, Kx, underpairs, etc) so we can't really use a blockers argument for jamming, which is fine because we're not really fat vbetting when we jam but nor are we bluffing, this is like a textbook example of a merge and we're against two ranges that are plenty wide enough and linear enough for us to turn a profit when we jam 88. Prob just fold pre against a V we don't suspect to be a spazz.