Hi, I have no reads, sizing too small pre? what would you do?


[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $15 Buy-in (20/40 blinds, 5 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37851536

MP3: 7,234 (180.9 bb)
CO: 5,156 (128.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): 5,828 (145.7 bb)
SB: 4,820 (120.5 bb)
BB: 4,990 (124.8 bb)
UTG+1: 4,981 (124.5 bb)
UTG+2: 4,990 (124.8 bb)
MP1: 5,539 (138.5 bb)
MP2: 5,000 (125 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A T
5 folds, CO calls 40, Hero raises to 120, SB folds, BB calls 80, CO calls 80

Flop: (425) 9 3 T (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets 187, BB raises to 587, hero?

I assume that CO folded? In that case I would call and evaluate turn. He could be doing this with a worse TP-type hand, he could be bluffing, he could be raising a draw, he could have 99 for a flopped set etc.

Always think you need to have a plan when u reevaluate turn. Which parts of our range would continue on what turns?

yes sorry CO folded dunno why that was missing

Yes if you decide to call flop on what turns are you folding / continuing? There is heaps of bad turns ie: heart, K,8,Q,7,J,6

Yeah the problem with calling the flop is he's going to barrel so many turns.

Would it be crazy to put in a raise on the flop? Put the pressure back on him if he has a draw, possibly end it there. Maybe cause him to slow down on the turn at least.

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Calling and reevaluating is fine IMO.

I think most are aware of the importance of having a plan on the turn, it's fairly obvious what bad turn cards are without needing to list them.

It may not be as obvious to less experienced players on the forum who are trying to learn.

So what is your plan for the turn given we can expect villain to barrel so many cards? Call and reevaluate isn't a plan, imo.

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pre is fine, I think sizing OTT could be bigger. You have position in the hand so I don't mind calling for that reason. Obviously there are a lot of bad turn cards. The problem with raising is that if they do rejam then what do we do?. I see this line a lot from people having 2 pairs in the BB and sometimes top pair/weak kicker. I don't know how wide BB is defending here, is there a possibility of 9,3? Seems unlikely. But having the top pair blocker 9,10 also seems unlikely. It's probably a draw or a flopped set, however, I don't think 99 would c/r, maybe 33? So not too many combos of sets. I call and fold to any

In that case you can feel more confident you're in bad shape against his range and fold. He's not likely going to shove his weaker draws, he'd probably just call with those. Even if he folds them along with his weaker pairs, that's not a terrible outcome here.

I just hate getting sucked into these spots where you know things are going to get worse and worse with each street.

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So if we do raise and they just flat and barrel any river, what do we continue with besides a non heart A or 10?

Seems like we would just be raising to "gain information" or to "see where we're at", which is not a good reason to be raising.

You could be right, it's kind of a desire to end the hand now one way or the other to avoid getting dragged to showdown and calling off a good chunk of our stack.

But I would like to hear more analysis of the "call and reevaluate turn" approach. That's the easy answer; the hard part is planning what we should actually do after we reevaluate.

1) Turn is a harmless card and villain barrels (I assume we call again)

2) Turn is a scary card and villain barrels (now we fold?)

3) Turn is harmless and villain checks (check behind?)

4) Turn is scary and villain checks (check?)



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Honestly, I would fold to Villains check-raise. In low limits this means mostly strenght! Besides, I´m with user Darth Maul. What happens on the turn? Okay, we call. Turn comes and it´s a king. What now? How much of our stack do we wanna invest? Turn comes as a blank and V bets 1/2 pot or 3/4 pot. What now? Are we good here?

We have TPTK: Do we wanna committ us to the pot? No, we don´t. At least I don´t wanna committ myself with "only" TPTK.

^ LOL what

Villians range is weighted heavily towards flush/straight draws then anything we might be behind. Not many sets here, maybe 910 is the biggest worry. Just call and reevaluate turn. What was the turn card?

Call, villain can have draws and worse tens. What's the turn?

I called flop, turn was brick 5c

he jams 4300 into 1600 and I have 5k behind

call or fold?

are you rly considering 3b/folding the flop with tptk on the most draw heavy board ever?

Of course it is a plan.

Ok fair enough then the bad turn cards are those that complete the draw hands. So 6, K, 8, 7,.Q and hearts.

There are tough spots in the majority of tournaments you will play.

As someone else said 3betting the flop for information is not an ideal way to play at all.

Like I said, we "call and reevaluate" and here we are facing a gross spot on the turn.

I threw out the flop raise suggestion as a way to prevent the reasonable likelihood that we'd find ourselves even deeper on the turn. Believe me, I'm not crazy about the idea at all. But is it really worse than letting the hand unfold the way it has?

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Not all hands will play out this way though which is why calling and evaluating is perfectly fine.

How many times will a V jam 4300 into 1600? The answer is not very often. This is a terrible jam from the V imo. If it's a draw they're overplaying it and if it's a set/2 pair they are losing value with the jam.

I think more often than not this will be 2 pair or a set as the V is scared of a draw completing on the river, so i would fold.

Folding to a shove there. I think villain often has two main reasons for this shove:
- puts you on a draw after the flop call and he has a fear of getting outdrawn/ doesn't know how to play it out (fear of check-check & PSB-call-scary river) so he just jams for value (TT,99,33,T9, maybe even T3s and 93s as BB). against these hands we're doing very poorly (<10% equity)
- overplaying his hand with draws (more likely strong combo draws like JQh than others like Kh7h IMO), or even AT, and very rarely a stone cold bluff. Even his weaker draws have equity against us that is stronger than what we have against his value range, so I'd want to be pretty confident that villain is heavily weighted toward this part of his range and for that I'd need to have a bit of a read on the player to feel comfortable

I don't want to throw away 125bb with just TPTK. Even if I knew the guy was a maniac I still don't think it's an easy call (needing 42% equity), so I'm folding

Not exactly this way but when you add together the times we get a bad card on the turn with the times the turn bricks and villain barrels (even if he doesn't shove), were going to be in a bad spot on the turn a fairly high % of the time.

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id snap call turn honestly.

AT is a better turncall than JJ. wp if you called.

edit: oh and also flop is incredibly std. doing anything else whether it would be b/f or b/3b/f (lol) would be terrible.

The way this hand played out is exactly why I asked about the plan. As wrong as it feels the bet/fold the flop, this sort of spot happens on the turn the whole time. We got the 50% of the deck that isn’t a disaster for our hand, and we can still fold the best hand. We still don’t know if villain is shoving value, a worse T, a draw but we have committed more money. I’m just questioning whether we are over optimistic that the hand goes more like:
Draw card comes in that slows villain down with a worse T.
He *might* be villain that raises his draw to get a free turn and he bricks
We hero call 125bb and he’s semi bluffing, he bricks.
We get a good turn, he bets turn 1/2 pot with a worse T, we call and river goes c/c

Do we think this is going to happen the 25% or more times we need it to?

Why AT > JJ?