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Small Stakes MTT Discussion and analysis of small stakes MTT strategy

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Old 10-13-2017, 11:19 PM   #1
wowsooooted
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A2 off river spot

Hi, we have no reads. Whats everyones thoughts on this hand?



[converted_hand][hand_history]Poker Stars, $6.82 Buy-in (60/120 blinds, 15 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #37848549

UTG+2: 20,196 (168.3 bb)
MP1: 11,053 (92.1 bb)
MP2: 22,387 (186.6 bb)
MP3: 9,335 (77.8 bb)
CO: 7,713 (64.3 bb)
Hero (BTN): 9,065 (75.5 bb)
SB: 11,380 (94.8 bb)
BB: 10,000 (83.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A 2
5 folds, Hero raises to 273, SB folds, BB calls 153

Flop: (726) 3 4 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets 349, BB calls 349

Turn: (1,424) 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (1,424) 8 (2 players)
BB bets 500, Hero?
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Old 10-14-2017, 06:17 AM   #2
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Re: A2 off river spot

haha weird hand. i think it comes down a lot to how wide you cbet flop for value. if its like any pair literally (pps as well as 3x,4x,9x) its probably a fold. if you have some reasonably strong checkbacks i think its a fold.
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:30 AM   #3
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Re: A2 off river spot

Can't see too many missed draws in his range. Maybe 65? Picked up a heart draw on the turn? The bet size looks enticing too. I'd fold.

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Old 10-14-2017, 07:04 PM   #4
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Re: A2 off river spot

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
Can't see too many missed draws in his range. Maybe 65? Picked up a heart draw on the turn? The bet size looks enticing too. I'd fold.

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65 is a straight, maybe 57, does he ever have some random floats?? If so its interesting because we are getting 4-1 on a call otr so we only have to show up with the best hand 20% of the time
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:09 PM   #5
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Re: A2 off river spot

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65 is a straight, maybe 57, does he ever have some random floats?? If so its interesting because we are getting 4-1 on a call otr so we only have to show up with the best hand 20% of the time
I just don't see enough bluffs in his range here. And I think most players would go for a bigger bet as a bluff.

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Old 10-15-2017, 10:36 PM   #6
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Re: A2 off river spot

Seems like a good spot to bluff raise the river. You block the wheel and have a pair which blocks set combos although not likely. Only downside is we have the Ah. But it's not like we can have the '94 dream team everytime we want to bluff as far as blockers/removal.

Also I'd prob just check the flop most the time and stabbing more with a BDFD as it gives me more chances to barrel off and I feel like if we're betting this gutshot we have to bet 56s and then a smaller % that isn't 0 67s as well and that's starting to feel like a lot of bluffs for how little value we have. Sure we can have overpairs too etc but obviously most of our range isn't very strong here on the btn.
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:43 AM   #7
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Re: A2 off river spot

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Seems like a good spot to bluff raise the river. You block the wheel and have a pair which blocks set combos although not likely. Only downside is we have the Ah. But it's not like we can have the '94 dream team everytime we want to bluff as far as blockers/removal.
Bluff raising that river seems spewy. It's such a harmless board that I think you'll get looked up by anything that isn't air.

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Old 10-16-2017, 02:04 PM   #8
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Re: A2 off river spot

sigh fold
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Old 10-16-2017, 02:32 PM   #9
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Re: A2 off river spot

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sigh fold
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Old 10-16-2017, 02:44 PM   #10
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Re: A2 off river spot

I would fold too. The board is probably connecting better to Villains range and I don´t see too many bluff hands either. I put Villain on a better pair or a pocket pair. Guess we are beat. I fold!
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Old 10-16-2017, 03:03 PM   #11
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Re: A2 off river spot

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Originally Posted by wowsooooted View Post
If so its interesting because we are getting 4-1 on a call otr so we only have to show up with the best hand 20% of the time
that's why they bet so little, looks like they really want that call.

sigh fold

Of course this can be exploitable, so maybe I call here out of curiosity. could be an investment in the long run.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:44 PM   #12
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Re: A2 off river spot

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
Bluff raising that river seems spewy. It's such a harmless board that I think you'll get looked up by anything that isn't air.

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Ok so what hands do you want to bluff raise the river with then?
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:04 AM   #13
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Re: A2 off river spot

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Ok so what hands do you want to bluff raise the river with then?
Nothing, this board doesn't give you enough to work with. You have no 2p hands in your range (except maybe 98), no flushes, and straights are questionable too. So you basically need villain to put you on a set.

To bluff that river I would want a river card that looks a bit scarier to the villain. The 8h would be way better for your hand than the 8c.

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Old 10-17-2017, 01:34 PM   #14
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Re: A2 off river spot

Well of course having the nut blocker would help bluff %

You always need to have some bluffs in your range though. We can have 999/333/444/888 we can have 89 we also can have A5/56s. Villain also likely doesn't have many sets (can likely remove 99 maybe) and he almost never has overpairs. He can have some nutted hands but most his range is one pair hands we should be able to move him off. Plus most of our "bluff hands" would want to bet the turn to move marginal hands off.
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:53 PM   #15
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Re: A2 off river spot

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You always need to have some bluffs in your range though.
No you don't. Sometimes you can actually just fold to a river bet you know.

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Villain also likely doesn't have many sets (can likely remove 99 maybe) and he almost never has overpairs. He can have some nutted hands but most his range is one pair hands we should be able to move him off. Plus most of our "bluff hands" would want to bet the turn to move marginal hands off.
This is a $6 tourney. Like I've said in other posts, you can't assume all your opponents in the micro stakes are able to think at the level you need them to in order for moves like this work. Sure, it could work against the right villain. But I think it will fail way more often than not. The bottom line is the board needs to be scary enough to tell a believable bluff story. You know how people talk about thin value on the river? This would be going for thin bluff.



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Old 10-17-2017, 02:44 PM   #16
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Re: A2 off river spot

I mean the idea that you never want bluffs when you're in position on the river is clearly wrong. I'm not going to be patronized being told I can fold to river bets. Yeah I'm aware I can fold some frequency to river bets but this isn't a spot you should fold everytime. Why does bluffing A2o here equate bluffing all our hands on the river? I don't know why the board has to be "scary" vs being a good board for our range. Think I'm just gonna not post anymore advice since it seems the same people keep posting the same bad advice. Good luck.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:59 PM   #17
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Re: A2 off river spot

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Originally Posted by killer_kill View Post
I mean the idea that you never want bluffs when you're in position on the river is clearly wrong. I'm not going to be patronized being told I can fold to river bets. Yeah I'm aware I can fold some frequency to river bets but this isn't a spot you should fold everytime. Why does bluffing A2o here equate bluffing all our hands on the river? I don't know why the board has to be "scary" vs being a good board for our range. Think I'm just gonna not post anymore advice since it seems the same people keep posting the same bad advice. Good luck.


+10000000
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:45 PM   #18
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Re: A2 off river spot

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I mean the idea that you never want bluffs when you're in position on the river is clearly wrong. I'm not going to be patronized being told I can fold to river bets. Yeah I'm aware I can fold some frequency to river bets but this isn't a spot you should fold everytime. Why does bluffing A2o here equate bluffing all our hands on the river? I don't know why the board has to be "scary" vs being a good board for our range. Think I'm just gonna not post anymore advice since it seems the same people keep posting the same bad advice. Good luck.
I wasn't trying to be patronizing, and if you're not willing to engage in dialogue with people who disagree with you then by all means stop posting. The great thing about this game is there is no one objectively correct way to play these spots, and the benefit of dialogue and disagreement is so we can hear different perspectives. There is very little value in a forum where everyone agrees with each other when a hand is posted.

My view on situations like this (and, coincidentally, I have since heard Negreanu say the same thing in a podcast) is that people in this forum emphasize balance way too much. It's become the mantra-du-jour, repeated in virtually every response to a hand. My responses are an attempt to push back on that a bit because I think balance is much less important in the micro/small stakes than it is at higher stakes.

I never said you never want bluffs on the river in position. I disagreed with your statement that you always want some bluffs here. Just because you're in position on the river doesn't mean you have to fight over the pot. I personally don't think this is a good spot for a bluff so I think there is nothing wrong with folding here. That's all I'm trying to say.

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Old 10-17-2017, 04:32 PM   #19
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Re: A2 off river spot

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Originally Posted by killer_kill View Post
I mean the idea that you never want bluffs when you're in position on the river is clearly wrong. I'm not going to be patronized being told I can fold to river bets. Yeah I'm aware I can fold some frequency to river bets but this isn't a spot you should fold everytime. Why does bluffing A2o here equate bluffing all our hands on the river? I don't know why the board has to be "scary" vs being a good board for our range. Think I'm just gonna not post anymore advice since it seems the same people keep posting the same bad advice. Good luck.
No don't stop posting
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