77 preflop - MTT Poker Strategy - Multi Table Tournament Poker Forum

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - 150/300 NL (8 max) - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 9.75 BB (VPIP: 18.18, PFR: 11.63, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 44)
Hero (UTG+1): 24.47 BB
MP: 45.49 BB (VPIP: 23.40, PFR: 15.22, 3Bet Preflop: 9.52, Hands: 47)
CO: 25.61 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
BTN: 79.84 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 3)
SB: 22.92 BB (VPIP: 19.20, PFR: 13.49, 3Bet Preflop: 6.20, Hands: 351)
BB: 27.02 BB (VPIP: 21.90, PFR: 17.30, 3Bet Preflop: 11.22, Hands: 243)

7 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.2 BB) Hero has 7

fold, Hero raises to 2.25 BB, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 4.67 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.42 BB

Flop: (11.03 BB, 2 players) 8

SB bets 4.17 BB, Hero?

Quote

09-23-2018 , 11:56 AM

oldgoat

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 1,972

tiny 3b oop with 23BB - from a player with 6% 3b over a decent sample?

- unless we have a read that they are capable of a tricky play, I would honestly put this as KK+ only and fold to the 3b. even if we range a bit wider and throw in the odd bluff combo we can call the 3b but we're still folding most flops - including this one.

Quote

09-23-2018 , 12:02 PM

yonis9

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 276

My bad, I wanted opinions about preflop play.

Quote

09-23-2018 , 12:02 PM

underdeveloped

centurion

Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 159

Too good of a price pre. I'm peeling his 3-bet and then folding to his flop c-bet.

Quote

09-23-2018 , 12:32 PM

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

EP opening range with 25BB does not have a lot of hands that fold to 3-bet, so SB's 3-bet range looks quite strong here. I either fold or 4-bet push preflop. depends on the notes we have on V and actual numbers behind his 3-bet stats. 6.20% could be 1 hand of 16 which is not statistically significant.

Quote

09-23-2018 , 01:20 PM

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

I think you have to call the small 3b pre with such good odds but recognize that his range is super strong there and you're set-mining.

Quote

09-23-2018 , 01:24 PM

yonis9

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 276

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Maul

I think you have to call the small 3b pre with such good odds but recognize that his range is super strong there and you're set-mining.

Do you still call against 3-3.5x 3bet?

Quote

09-23-2018 , 01:32 PM

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by yonis9

Do you still call against 3-3.5x 3bet?

Nope. If he makes it 6.5bb there, your direct and implied odds change dramatically. As it stands his 3b technically isn't even small enough to give you odds to set-mine, but close enough to make the call (about 9:1 implied odds).

Quote

09-24-2018 , 03:39 AM

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Maul

I think you have to call the small 3b pre with such good odds but recognize that his range is super strong there and you're set-mining.

that's preposterous. the eff. stack size does not allow set mining here.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 06:17 AM

#10

ShipThisPLZ

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 567

Quote:

Originally Posted by cizixap

that's preposterous. the eff. stack size does not allow set mining here.

We are closing action. This is a pure pot odds scenario, doesnt really matter what you do pre as long as its not 4b jamming.

ex: we have 11bbs 9 handed vs utg min raise, are you folding 22 in the bb?

Quote

09-24-2018 , 07:22 AM

#11

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShipThisPLZ

set mining rule does not really depend on whether you are closing action or not. Your example with BB is not even relevant, it's completely different scenario.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 08:05 AM

#12

ShipThisPLZ

grinder

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 567

Quote:

Originally Posted by cizixap

set mining rule does not really depend on whether you are closing action or not. Your example with BB is not even relevant, it's completely different scenario.

how is it not relevant, if you are folding in one and calling in the other then you are contradicting yourself. You are set mining in both scenarios, which is totally fine. Having these rules you set in stone that you cant break is not great for your game

Quote

09-24-2018 , 09:09 AM

#13

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by cizixap

that's preposterous. the eff. stack size does not allow set mining here.

He's getting about 10:1 implied. Definitely on the low side but good enough to call.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 09:45 AM

#14

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Maul

He's getting about 10:1 implied. Definitely on the low side but good enough to call.

No, you flop the set ±12% or 1 of ±7.5 times. The implied odds required to justify that call should be at least 15-1 or better 20-1. If you don't have them, there is no need to get involved.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 09:47 AM

#15

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShipThisPLZ

Playing with 11BB stack drastically differs from playing with 25BB stack. This is the difference. I might consider jam with 22 and 11BB preflop - depedning on the action.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 09:51 AM

#16

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by cizixap

No, you flop the set ±12% or 1 of ±7.5 times. The implied odds required to justify that call should be at least 15-1 or better 20-1. If you don't have them, there is no need to get involved.

That rule is more applicable to deeper stacks to account for the decreased likelihood of your opponent committing large amounts of chips. At 24bb effective villain is much more likely to commit his stack with weaker made hands.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 10:04 AM

#17

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Maul

No, it's the math that is applicable in any situation. Also, what kinds of hands from 3-bet range would make weaker hands

Ace-high? Would V stack off with Ace-high?

Quote

09-24-2018 , 10:11 AM

#18

Darth_Maul

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 4,435

Quote:

Originally Posted by cizixap

No, it's the math that is applicable in any situation. Also, what kinds of hands from 3-bet range would make weaker hands

Ace-high? Would V stack off with Ace-high?

The 15:1 or 20:1 rule is a buffer to make up for the times you flop your set and still don't win many chips either because your opponent whiffs or because he hits but stacks are deep enough that he doesn't commit with something like top pair. With 24bb effective and a small 3b from villain, the chances of winning his stack are greatly increased because his range is heavily weighted towards hands he won't fold postflop. Therefore, you can make your decision based on the implied odds rather than the 15/20:1 rule. And 10:1 is close enough to the implied odds of 12:1 for me to make the call.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 12:05 PM

#19

miguelin43

adept

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 820

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Maul

I think this is best learning stuff I have read in a long time , nice post this one

Quote

09-24-2018 , 01:43 PM

#20

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth_Maul

Let's say that your are optimistic enough to mine a set with 10-1 implied odds.
When we call 3-bet and put 2.42BB in the pot, we should have 2.42 * 10 = 24.2BB implied odds. The max you can win is SB stack + 1BB + 0.7BB = 24.62. You barely scrap pretty optimistic implied odds. This is pretty marginal play. You can't justify it by applying non-relevant arguments like 3-bet sizing or V play style which you don't even know.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 02:04 PM

#21

oldgoat

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 1,972

calling the 3b is w/e - I know I said fold initially but call seems fine also - the 15:1 "rule" is really a rule of thumb - the reason we need more than 7.5-1 is that we aren't sure if we're going to get paid if we hit our set (and occasionally we hit our set but then lose) Here we have 4.2-1 direct pot odds and the strength of the range we can put V on mean that it's going to be rare that we don't get stacks in when we hit.

Also folding to this small a 3b is not great for table image.

4b ai does seem like a spew however.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 02:06 PM

#22

oldgoat

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 1,972

Quote:

Originally Posted by yonis9

Do you still call against 3-3.5x 3bet?

No here we need to fold readless

Quote

09-24-2018 , 02:09 PM

#23

yonis9

journeyman

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 276

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgoat

No here we need to fold readless

what hands do we wanna 4bet jam against the 3xish size? TT+ , AK, AQs?

Quote

09-24-2018 , 02:13 PM

#24

cizixap

adept

Join Date: Oct 2017 Posts: 1,027

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldgoat

4b ai does seem like a spew however.

It depends on the 3-bet stats. if those 6.2% 3-bet pre that V has are based on considerable sample size, then it means that he is capable of 3-betting with polarized range. In that case 4-bet jam with 77 is fine.

Quote

09-24-2018 , 02:22 PM

#25

oldgoat

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 1,972

Why? perfectly possible to 3b this much only for value

And we have to think about this particular spot - tiny 3b oop with 23bb against EP raise - it stinks of a monster - unless we have a read it's a massive spew

Quote

Page 1 of 2

First

1 2

Last

Post Reply Subscribe

...

Page 1 of 2

First

1 2

Last