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Old 07-14-2017, 10:02 PM   #1
Darth_Maul
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2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

PokerStars - 60/120 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 81.93 BB (VPIP: 16.00, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 13.33, Hands: 25)
UTG+1: 25 BB
MP: 23 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
MP+1: 40.43 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
CO: 23.02 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
Hero (BTN): 40.07 BB
SB: 68.31 BB (VPIP: 44.00, PFR: 20.83, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 25)
BB: 97.77 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 25)

8 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has T Q

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 3.33 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 2.33 BB, CO calls 2.33 BB

Flop: (12.5 BB, 3 players) J T 8
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets 6.67 BB, fold, CO raises to 19.56 BB and is all-in, Hero ???

Am I good here often enough? By my calculations I need about 26% equity but his range is going to be pretty narrow here I think.

What range would you give villain and would you make this call?
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:55 PM   #2
daviid
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

pre i might go a tad bigger, flop is a very very easy check. as played obv call.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:08 PM   #3
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

Checking back flop is a better play, you got showdown value and you don't want to turn it into a bluff with just a gutter. And you need just about 25% without the bounty, this is just about a break even call if hes doing this with top pair and better. Gave villain the range of 88+ (not including 99), J8s+, JTo+, Q9s, 97s and T8s. Against this range you have 26% so it is a +CeV call to make. You have 29% equity if you throw nines into that range but this is villain dependent. A competent player will definitely show up with 99 here where as I don't think weaker players will.

This analysis also doesn't include his bounty so this is definitely a +eV call to make. But losing this pot also makes you unable to stack anyone else at your table for their bounties so I think I'm letting this go if I don't think he is jamming 99 here and he has a small bounty.
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Old 07-15-2017, 09:15 AM   #4
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

In real time there is no way to have accurate enough info to determine if he has 99 in his range. So if the call is as close as it is, would you opt for survival?

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Old 07-15-2017, 11:43 AM   #5
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
In real time there is no way to have accurate enough info to determine if he has 99 in his range. So if the call is as close as it is, would you opt for survival?

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If the guy has a smallish bounty I'm folding this because I still want to be able to stack other players for their bounty, which you can't do if you call and lose, which you probably will.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:48 AM   #6
JustinDMoney
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

As played I'm calling for the bounty all day long. You have wayyy more than 26% equity and obviously bounty equity too. Villain range 88-TT, AT+, K9+, Q9+, J8s+, J9o+ T8+ 96s, 97o. Maybe the occasional 77 87 Qxs, AQ. 48.3% equity. Could take out or add a few hands here but still getting the right equity to call.

Raise bigger pre as want to try get this pot heads up or pick up the limped chips. I make it 4.2bb.

Interesting discussion about checking back flop though. What would you guys do if turn comes A, K, Q or 7 and either of them bet out after you showed weakness on flop?

Personally I cbet to try to take it down. You have equity and outs vs the big stack (but can fold if he check-raises). Try to get the bounty of the short stack. Wet board so big part of both ranges has something here.
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Old 07-17-2017, 11:07 AM   #7
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

bigger pre with two limpers

check flop
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Old 07-17-2017, 01:15 PM   #8
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Originally Posted by JustinDMoney View Post
As played I'm calling for the bounty all day long. You have wayyy more than 26% equity and obviously bounty equity too. Villain range 88-TT, AT+, K9+, Q9+, J8s+, J9o+ T8+ 96s, 97o. Maybe the occasional 77 87 Qxs, AQ. 48.3% equity. Could take out or add a few hands here but still getting the right equity to call.
That's waaaay looser than the range I assigned him. I have a blocker to a bunch of those hands and I think it's a bit of a stretch to include hands like 96s.

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Old 07-17-2017, 01:49 PM   #9
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
That's waaaay looser than the range I assigned him. I have a blocker to a bunch of those hands and I think it's a bit of a stretch to include hands like 96s.
You're probably right but I'd still bet money on seeing 96s from time to time early in these type of micro stakes games lol As I said, take some hands out and it's still going to be above the 26% equity you needed.

Seems the consensus is to check flop anyway so then we are never in this scenario. Still not sure I fully 'get' checking though. Guess I have something I need to put more work into. :-/
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:11 AM   #10
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

Fold preflop, but yeah if you're going to play the hand go bigger for sure.
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Old 07-18-2017, 03:21 AM   #11
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Fold preflop, but yeah if you're going to play the hand go bigger for sure.
+1 I'd want to be a lot deeper to play this
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Old 07-18-2017, 06:04 AM   #12
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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+1 I'd want to be a lot deeper to play this
+ another one
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Old 07-18-2017, 06:17 AM   #13
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

neverevereverever folding pre, esp given the fact that we can play a pot IP vs someone w a smaller stack than us in a KO.
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Old 07-18-2017, 09:27 AM   #14
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Originally Posted by Captain-Hindsight View Post
+1 I'd want to be a lot deeper to play this
Folding QT on the btn to a couple of limpers is awfully weak. I agree my raise was too small but that's definitely a good raising spot with a hand that has some decent flopability.

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Old 07-18-2017, 09:48 AM   #15
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Folding QT on the btn to a couple of limpers is awfully weak. I agree my raise was too small but that's definitely a good raising spot with a hand that has some decent flopability.

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I wouldnt say it's awfully weak, OK it's on the passive side but it really is not a spot where raising is mandatory.
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Old 07-18-2017, 01:28 PM   #16
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2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panny1 View Post
neverevereverever folding pre, esp given the fact that we can play a pot IP vs someone w a smaller stack than us in a KO.


I think QTo is the type of hand that tends to win small pots and lose the big ones. We're going to need miracle flop to win the bounty. It also should be mentioned it looks like we're around average chips which is really not the time to be splashing around in a PKO because it denies us the opportunity to win bounties when we have good hands.

And darth folding QT is not is not awfully weak. Deciding to raise and making it a sheepish 3.3bb is weak



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Old 07-18-2017, 09:28 PM   #17
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

QTo flops like complete dog **** so we need to be bkuffing most the time. So now we can't even flop massive on most flops besides str8s and trips. Qto is a bad hand. If its suited I wouldnt mind. Its def not weak to fold there.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:44 AM   #18
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

Oh ffs guys, you can't be afraid of playing postflop all the time. We're getting insane odds considering the bounty, weak limpers in front of us and absolute position.
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Old 07-19-2017, 03:49 AM   #19
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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neverevereverever folding pre, esp given the fact that we can play a pot IP vs someone w a smaller stack than us in a KO.
just to be clear, do you advocate a PF raise? or are you suggesting we call and play postflop in that sense
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Old 07-19-2017, 04:06 AM   #20
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Oh ffs guys, you can't be afraid of playing postflop all the time. We're getting insane odds considering the bounty, weak limpers in front of us and absolute position.
Why are you so mad? We have a different opinion on the hand, that is all.
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:34 AM   #21
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

folding pre is atrocious. easy iso on the btn.
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Old 07-19-2017, 06:24 AM   #22
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Why are you so mad? We have a different opinion on the hand, that is all.
I'm not mad at all, I've just seen some questionable advice regarding preflopfolds, that's all
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Old 07-19-2017, 09:03 AM   #23
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

This is the great thing about discussing poker hands, there is no one correct way to play most situations.

If we agree that folding QT on the btn with a couple of limpers is bad, the question then is whether to raise or fold. Note that I would likely fold this is one of the players raised in front.

What I don't like about calling behind is (1) you allow limpers to see a cheap flop with wide ranges; (2) QT flops decently but isn't great in a multiway pot. With QTs I'd actually be more inclined to call behind to entice the blinds to come along and get a nice 4 or 5 way pot with a strong flopping hand and position in my favor. And (3) limping pre makes it difficult to get aggressive later and puts me in a position where I have to hit to have a good chance of winning the pot.

The advantages of raising: (1) you take initiative with position, which puts opponents on the defensive; (2) by limping they have both revealed weaker ranges, which QT actually does okay against (we can exclude many dominating hands from their ranges, like AQ/KQ/AT); and (3) with aggression and position, I don't have to flop anything to win the pot postflop.

With all of that said, I do agree my raise size was too small.

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Old 07-19-2017, 09:35 AM   #24
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Re: 2ndP+GSD in $2.20 progressive turbo

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Originally Posted by Darth_Maul View Post
This is the great thing about discussing poker hands, there is no one correct way to play most situations.

If we agree that folding QT on the btn with a couple of limpers is bad, the question then is whether to raise or fold. Note that I would likely fold this is one of the players raised in front.

What I don't like about calling behind is (1) you allow limpers to see a cheap flop with wide ranges; (2) QT flops decently but isn't great in a multiway pot. With QTs I'd actually be more inclined to call behind to entice the blinds to come along and get a nice 4 or 5 way pot with a strong flopping hand and position in my favor. And (3) limping pre makes it difficult to get aggressive later and puts me in a position where I have to hit to have a good chance of winning the pot.

The advantages of raising: (1) you take initiative with position, which puts opponents on the defensive; (2) by limping they have both revealed weaker ranges, which QT actually does okay against (we can exclude many dominating hands from their ranges, like AQ/KQ/AT); and (3) with aggression and position, I don't have to flop anything to win the pot postflop.

With all of that said, I do agree my raise size was too small.

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Good post Darth.

It is good to get everyones opinions which is why this forum is so great.

I do think people in general (i have been guilty in the past too) bash others for their opinions where, like you say, there is no real right or wrong way to play the hand. Theres nothing "atrocious" about folding this pre... its just a fairly cautious approach . Likewise it's not atrocious to raise either, for the reasons details by you and others who advocate this way of playing the hand.
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