Then it's time to flip for it all. What he can't do is show up with TT+ often.

But realistically, he mostly folds v 8bb.

If he is in fact 4 betting too tight, for instance only premiums, then that is more of an argument to 3bet here as he is only going to shove if he has it. therefore, he will either call or fold 90% of the time, either leaving you the initiative post flop or winning the pot right away.

But you too have to adjust and instead of calling using MDF, call according to pot odds only. These are the adjustments of poker that makes better players.

just to contribute to this nice discussion, here is the HRC solution for 4-bet-shoving from BU and calling it from SB. http://hands.holdemresources.net/?id=10iiofyeyimte

Also, MDF only makes sense in a long run vs the same opponent with the same eff. stack size and at the same stage of tournament. In reality we never play against exactly the same environment. MDF should normally be the last item in the list of factors to take into account when making decisions like this. F.e if I play live tournament - where people tend to 4-bet pretty tight - vs OMC i can easily fold 99 because he most likely have QQ+, AKs. In SnG low BI versus loose opponents id call. Between those two extremes lays variety of situations.

This is about range calibration, combinatorics and mathematics and ensuring we are playing a baseline GTO strategy more than it is about 'balancing' your range. Thats fine if you don't care about all that type of stuff but you will find all the best players in the world do, so instead of 'not giving a f*ck' maybe you you should at least take some time to think it through, who knows maybe it might improve your game.

Not as clear when there is squeeze stacks behind, fine to mix in some flats w top 5% at a non 0% to induce, esp if your confident post

I always do 90% of tables I sitdown at I expect to be the best player at the table in low stakes. If you don't then your doing something wrong.

Of course you have to at certain times... but the more skill edge I can bring into play I will do so as it will increase my ROI. You need to at least be thinking about things like this if you want to do better at mtts and at least have some sort of thought infrastructure it place to manage it.

dude, best players in the world play in the very different form of poker. that works for them does not work in low BI. Trying to apply GTO just for the sake of mimicking "best players in the world" is utterly silly idea I believe.

Being the best player on 100% of tables is not enough 35bb deep. No getting away from the fact you'll need to get it in relatively marginally and hold to do well in most tournaments.

With these stacks, what is the value of your edge?

Certainly you should always have some randomization set up in your game. But when asnwering posts, the answers should not be based on the randomized deviations, but the standard responses.

[QUOTE=wowsooooted;54452079]I always do 90% of tables I sitdown at I expect to be the best player at the table in low stakes. If you don't then your doing something wrong.


Accept when I'm on ur table

As for the hand I'm 3 betting calling off to a 4 bet allday long here vs a button open. Flatting would be ok vs an early position raise.

Flatting pre with 99 is totally fine. It's a hand that has some sd value but doesn't flop particularly well. If you flat it here it is with the intention of set mining a lot, with some flopped overpairs, and some bluff catching.

3betting this for value works if you have a dynamic with the button where you are happy to call the 4bet shove. It is also fine if the button is a station or there is a table dynamic where you can expect to get value from button here.

In general though you're not going to love post-flop oop in a 3bet pot. So without a specific reason to 3bet I prefer to flat here.

As played check the flop, there's very little to gain from a bet. Sometimes a very small bet will get through, depends on your read though.

As played c/f turn is best. But it's not a great spot to be in with your hand.

With 35bb effective there is still plenty of room to maneuver, not like we anywhere close to push / fold. I can still do heaps of stuff postflop and use full repertoire.

No, my question was directed at the "value" of your edge. It was kind of piggy backing on the concept that people over estimate their edge.

Matt Hunt did a database analysis of multiple databases and determined that the edge for professional players at that stack size was equivalent to about 3 - 4 BBs per 100 hands. Meaning that on each individual hand their edge is about 0.03 BBs.

Fools errand trying to calculate your edge in an exact finite value imo.. there are so many unknown variables that you can't quantify such a number, such as how close to GTO both yourself and your opponents are playing, since the game is unsolved and nobody knows what correct GTO lines should look like it is literally impossible to quantify such a number. Your entitled to your opinion, sure but sorry I have to call BS on this one.

Are you saying when you have 35bb in a tournament you have next to no edge on the rest of the table? and its pretty much just down to luck now?

None of what you said is relevant. All Matt Hunt has to prove is that the top X% winningest players only go on to win/place well X amount of the time over a significant sample.

Moreover, an active reggy player to your right will further diminish your supposed edge, especially if you're letting him over-realise and see too many flops IP.

Overestimating edge is an ROI-killing late stage leak. I know because I used to kid myself that I could afford to pass all types of spots.

There is a difference between not passing up on marginal spots and maximising your skill edge through the planning and execution of lines accordingly.

Preflop is only 25% of the game the other 75% is played after the flop when we look at it in terms of betting rounds, if you are a better postflop player than your opponent than then we want to be operating in this space as much as possible because here we are comfortable and experienced whereas your opponent may not be and this creates an edge for us to exploit.

By planning and executing lines that are not favourable to postflop play you are giving this edge up, thats why you should have a slight bias for highly granular lines that take your postflop skill set into account.

I don't pass up on marginal spots because I feel my skill edge is too great, no maths is maths but I do approach the game with an attituide to excentuate my skill edge as much as possible and plan and exec lines that favor postflop play esp in position as I know I should be making better desisicons here than my opponent.

I believe it is enough, best to stop focusing on the results and start focusing on playing the best poker you possibly can. I know I have to get it in relatively marginally and hold sometimes but that fact applies to everyone else too so its held at a constant just like the luck of the cards, but playing your best is something you can control, so when all other factors are held equal the best player will always come out on top.

Instead of trying to be the best player in the world just try to be the best player at your table everytime. If the cards are held constant then you will win guarenteed. Thinking skill edge is non-existent when your 35bb eff is erroneous imo