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When Your Check Raise is Called When Your Check Raise is Called

05-11-2023 , 01:14 PM
Playing a Venetian $400. Villain is a good/aggressive reg. Hero has a somewhat tight image.

At 8KBB Villain min opens the CO with a 400K stack; we defend the BB with 98dd and a stack of about 200K. About 1/2 of the remaining players make the $.

Flop is TT7r with a diamond (don't remember which).

Villain continues for 12K. We go to 42K; Villain makes the call.

Turn is a Badugi A. Check/Check

River is a 9, Hero bets 30K into 96K; Villain jams.

Thoughts on all streets welcome.

Preflop seems standard. Flop check raise? Size? Barrel turn? Bet/call; Bet/fold; Jam; or check call river?
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05-11-2023 , 01:55 PM
Pot size on the turn/river is 128k if Im counting right. 44k + 42k + 42k. And you have around 150k behind.

Thats pretty awkward stack size for the turn, which tells me your flop c/r size is off. You either want to larger to set up a turn jam or go smaller to set up smaller bets on turn and river.

C/r to 30k has a 100k pot with 160kish behind. So you can pretty cleanly bet turn jam river. It also gives you better odds on your c/r and allowed you to c/r weaker value hands that want protection. Pretty sure a solver is c/ring this board pretty often for a smaller size.
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05-11-2023 , 02:00 PM
I don't know if this is bad or not, bt I have had success with it. When I x/r a paired flop on a draw, I always fire again on the turn, as a check looks way too much like the draw that it is. I actually do this quite a bit on boards that should favor my range. When the A hits on the flop, my plan is to barrel the turn and shove the river (or pot size or over bet depending on SPR), since the A hits V's range, but we still can rep advantage on a T credibly, and V will be put to the test on the river. Can't tell what the blinds are from the post.

As played, what are trying to rep on the river? A x/r, then trap on a T or better? River bet is begging to get piled by a good V (maybe this works when we actually have the T). Might x/c a small river bet (more likely to do so if flop was double suited, as V would have a lot more missed draws).
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05-11-2023 , 04:32 PM
Id probably just call the flop - x/r really reps nothing, and who knows how he plays his range. I'd be more inclined to do it on a 2 suit flop or something more connected but not this one. On the river you bet 1/4 pot - it's really a pointless bet as he won't call with worse and will either raise or fold. I'd rather just check - not a fan of how you played this.
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05-11-2023 , 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ledn
Pot size on the turn/river is 128k if Im counting right. 44k + 42k + 42k. And you have around 150k behind.

Thats pretty awkward stack size for the turn, which tells me your flop c/r size is off. You either want to larger to set up a turn jam or go smaller to set up smaller bets on turn and river.

C/r to 30k has a 100k pot with 160kish behind. So you can pretty cleanly bet turn jam river. It also gives you better odds on your c/r and allowed you to c/r weaker value hands that want protection. Pretty sure a solver is c/ring this board pretty often for a smaller size.
My mistake; it was 6K BB. 117K pot after flop.
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05-11-2023 , 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan655
Id probably just call the flop - x/r really reps nothing, and who knows how he plays his range. I'd be more inclined to do it on a 2 suit flop or something more connected but not this one. On the river you bet 1/4 pot - it's really a pointless bet as he won't call with worse and will either raise or fold. I'd rather just check - not a fan of how you played this.
Don't you want to be able to check/raise Tx for value on flop?

The river bet was an attempt to block, and get value from 7x and underpairs...(I am not really a fan of how I played this either, that is why I brought the hand here in the first place...)
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05-12-2023 , 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3for3poker
Don't you want to be able to check/raise Tx for value on flop?

The river bet was an attempt to block, and get value from 7x and underpairs...(I am not really a fan of how I played this either, that is why I brought the hand here in the first place...)
I don't think I'd have any x/r range on a board like this unless he's playing highly exploitable - sure if people are going to cbet at an extremely high rate and fold to a x/r then go for it, otherwise I wouldn't. The frequency at which you have Tx+ here is so low I wouldn't consider it in range construction. I get the idea with your river bet but I don't think he ever calls with 7x/underpairs - I'm probably just checking the river at this point.
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05-12-2023 , 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan655
I don't think I'd have any x/r range on a board like this unless he's playing highly exploitable - sure if people are going to cbet at an extremely high rate and fold to a x/r then go for it, otherwise I wouldn't. The frequency at which you have Tx+ here is so low I wouldn't consider it in range construction. I get the idea with your river bet but I don't think he ever calls with 7x/underpairs - I'm probably just checking the river at this point.
solver is c/ring way more than it calls on this flop vs a small range bet. I ran it assuming 8k blinds (25bbeff) and it was 34% c/r, 6% call, 60% fold. Being 33bb deep might mean a few more calls but most of your continuing hands want to c/r this board.


A turn look like a pure check for us. Villain is floating a lot of Ax.

Last edited by ledn; 05-12-2023 at 09:39 AM.
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05-12-2023 , 09:43 AM
Depends entirely on the concentration and behavior of his Ax rank and file.

Ace turn would be ideal to string together an overbluffing exploit because it locks in whatever Ax he'd float flop with (which should be a lot; these beat all your bluffs and have positional advantage). He's not folding turn with an ace.

But once you triple river its game on. He shouldn't fold a lot, though I'm confident he should fold some. But you'd get guys like me who'd fold basically always in a live $400 at the Venetian.

Gotta be a jam though.
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05-12-2023 , 02:47 PM
I think your flop c/r is a bit big. On the turn, I think once you check you are basically giving up. Because what Ten raises the flop and then checks the turn? I think the plan should be to bet the turn smaller or all-in (eg. bet 30K on the turn) because the board is more polarizing. Picking a medium size put you in an awkward spot.

On the river, what is the reason for the bet? What hands do you expect the villain to fold here? If the villain peeled the flop with something like K7, then amazing value bet by you. But I really think hoping you get called by an underpair is a bit too thin, IMO.
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05-12-2023 , 03:08 PM
I think I would just call flop for a lower variance spot. Hmm I feel you can 3!/ fold 89dd against a cu or even rip 25bb profitably if cu is opening wide enough. Cu is going to have a lot of hands that you are worse than that fold to a jam. 3! Is dicey but you can leave a pan back and go on specific flops. Idk it’s a little spazzy but if you 3!, it looks super strong Vs ripping based on stack size. I would 3! Fold at a very low freq and would have to be against right opponent that is aggro and not super sticky.

Flop I would call. I have nothing wrong with raising flop though bc flop is solid for a bb defend. I kinda would wanna go for it on turn though if we raise so maybe set up close to a psb with flop sizing if possible.

Idk pre if villian opens 2-2.2x which you would expect at stack depth, I feel we can make it 7-8 8bb and just fold to 4!. Idk I feel it puts pressure on and we can rip flops that are good for low spr. Again this would be spazzy and maybe bad. Idk I even love just ripping 25bb Vs cutoff bc villian has to fold a lot of weaker Ax holdings and Kq or kj type hands. 89dd plays well when called also. Much rather have 89dd vs say AJo going against a hand like AK or AQ (this is a duh spot).
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05-15-2023 , 09:59 AM
JK love the 3-bet thoughts. Again. 98s is in my 3-bet range and with 25 bb's I am jamming a lot of the time. I'm only not jamming against sticky guys or very tight guys in LP.

Given we have 33 blinds pre-flop my 3-bet raise would be roughly 21k. And my flop cbet would be 21k.

The turn A is bad either way we play it unless we have a T or the turn is a Diamond which it isn't. So we can continue pretending to have the T or we can shut down. I shut down. And the check back by CO looks a lot like Ax and wants to see what we do on river (like if we have a T and are pretending we don't). Had we 3-bet pre flop a turn bet would be mandatory but I would have a bad feeling about it...

Given villain's turn check back I think a turn jam by us is a possibility (though I wouldn't because Villain can actually be setting us up with Tx). I probably just give up and check/fold to a jam on the river. Though I have been known to call because I get stubborn late. There just aren't many hands villain calls on the flop that we beat now. Maybe 7Xs (but villain will check a lot with it). I just don't see villain calling with hands like KQ/KJ/QJ. If villain has 9x its better than ours (though I think villain checks). And gutters like J8s/86s just hit a straight.
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05-15-2023 , 10:46 AM
I think this hand has too much playability and poor blockers to be a 3! jam. BTW, your post here was #5555...

Also, if Villain has 9x, we are chopping, the kicker can't play.
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05-15-2023 , 11:18 AM
Id check call flop. The opponents against whom i utilize a check shove(my only sizing) strategy on this flop are the opponents that cant fold(because their range is so value heavy with pocket pairs)when i have KT and the like, and strong tags against whom eggs' analysis is apt. Without that read im check calling. I believe that vs unremarkable donks my pair outs are significantly more profitable than in equilibrium (a good player denies much more equity on turn), which causes turn and river play to be quite easy vs donks. With turn and river betsize tells the decision to call flop seems even more clear, unless i have a monster and their flop action screams overpair that wont fold.

Edit to add, river bet exhibits possible misconception of proper river range construction. Your 9 beats some busted draws, and id expect live players to offer bonus free showdown equity with frequent river checks, and easily readable betsizes if you check the river.

Last edited by Bob148; 05-15-2023 at 11:38 AM.
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