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What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff?

12-03-2021 , 07:47 PM
So this guy man...

On the first hand shown here... I bet a tiny amount... and he open shows a pair of ace for a folded pair of ace against my smallish bet... not that its a hard fold to consider or anything but...the next hand he does a huge call with litteraly king high against a all in shove... so I have to think that if I shove that flop he doesn't fold... its like the way I value bet that looks a value bet... it must be that...

And on the hand after that... he does a huge call with not much...

I just don't get it...

I MUST be doing the bluff wrong and the value bet wrong... there's no way he reads my mind or anything... please explain me why my value bet is bad and why me bluff is bad...

Someone teach me how to make my value bet looks like a bluff, and my bluff looks like a value bet because I'm obviously getting it wrong here... because if you look at those two hands against the same person... it seems easy for him to see when its a bluff and when its a value bet

PokerStars - 25/50 Ante 6 NL - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 50.76 BB
BTN: 48.72 BB
Hero (SB): 46.28 BB
BB: 124.24 BB

4 players post ante of 0.12 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.98 BB) Hero has J K

fold, fold, Hero raises to 2.2 BB, BB calls 1.2 BB

Flop: (4.88 BB, 2 players) Q A T
Hero bets 2.48 BB, BB calls 2.48 BB

Turn: (9.84 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 7.38 BB, fold

Hero wins 9.84 BB


777

PokerStars - 40/80 Ante 10 NL - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 28.4 BB
SB: 34.62 BB
Hero (BB): 24.62 BB
CO: 81.1 BB

4 players post ante of 0.13 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2 BB) Hero has Q 4

CO raises to 2 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 8 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Flop: (17 BB, 2 players) J 2 6
Hero bets 16.5 BB and is all-in, CO calls 16.5 BB

Turn: (50 BB, 2 players) T

River: (50 BB, 2 players) 8

Hero shows Q 4 (High Card, Queen)
(Pre 25%, Flop 14%, Turn 7%)
CO shows K Q (High Card, King)
(Pre 75%, Flop 86%, Turn 93%)
CO wins 50 BB
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-04-2021 , 06:43 AM
Hand 1 isn't "a tiny amount;" you bet 75% of the pot.

Why did you choose this spot to run this line in hand 2?
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-04-2021 , 10:00 AM
Hand 1 your bet sizes are too large. That flop is way, way better for your range than his, so this is a standard small bet spot with your entire range. You want him to call with a large portion of his range there. Then you can size up a bit on the flop but the size you chose is way too large. Think about how wide his range is there and how much of that range he will fold to such a large bet on that board.

Hand 2 you are either tilting or just have a bad case of fancy play syndrome. A 3-bet bluff off 24bb with a hand that flops terribly is just spewing chips. Once you get to the flop I actually don't think the bluff is bad at all because it's such a dry flop and he can really only call with the top of his range, but keep in mind that his range should be pretty strong when he calls your crazy 3b pre.
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-04-2021 , 10:09 AM
Hand 2 is fold, call or if you decide to bluff it's a shove pre. That is better than what you did. I would never bluff in that spot though with Q4. I would never bluff at all in that spot anyways.
Hand 1 is pretty standard. You played it well.
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-04-2021 , 12:22 PM
did you just 3b BBvCO with Q4o ?! I think we found the leak...
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-04-2021 , 04:00 PM
2nd hand you just did a random crazy spewing sh*t. If you have done this here you might as well have done on others spots so it's natural for villains to call you light.
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-05-2021 , 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
Hand 1 isn't "a tiny amount;" you bet 75% of the pot.

Why did you choose this spot to run this line in hand 2?
That is true, it is not a small bet.
On the other hand, it is the same bet size as the next hand, where he calls with king high, and before he folds top pair. I think you're missing something in your explanation.

I chose that spot because I was a little tilted... and mostly that I think he does not have a pair there, I think he has nothing, which he does, problem is he still calls me with his empty overcards.

Also, it seems that I gather from all these responses a cold stone bluff is a bad thing to do... is it always a spot thing, cards blockers, etc. OBVIUSLY a bluff is with any hand, but it seems you guys generally wants a bluff with something. Care to explain on that.
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-05-2021 , 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManastaR
That is true, it is not a small bet.

Also, it seems that I gather from all these responses a cold stone bluff is a bad thing to do... is it always a spot thing, cards blockers, etc. OBVIUSLY a bluff is with any hand, but it seems you guys generally wants a bluff with something. Care to explain on that.
Stone cold bluffs can work if you find the right spot. For reasons I mentioned above, this isn't a good spot. Bluffing with some equity is always better in case you get called. You don't want to be drawing dead when your bluff gets called.
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-05-2021 , 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManastaR
That is true, it is not a small bet.
On the other hand, it is the same bet size as the next hand, where he calls with king high, and before he folds top pair. I think you're missing something in your explanation.
Well, that's because I didn't explain anything, I just wanted you to clarify it. On the whole, I think hand 1 is fine. I guess you could bet a little less on the turn, but **** happens sometimes.

Hand 2:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManastaR
I chose that spot because I was a little tilted...
Well, there's your problem.

As far as bluffing-- with your stack size a 3-bet shove is better for a bluff. Generally when bluffing, you want a hand that has some equity when called (pairs, suited Ax, broadway, maybe medium suited connectors) and some kind of read that villain is raising light and will fold. The less you have of one, the more you want of the other. (For the theoretical extremes, it doesn't matter if never folds to a 3-bet if you have aces; if he's raising light here and folds 100% of the time to a shove, then it doesn't matter what your cards are.)
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-05-2021 , 06:50 PM
In hand 1, the turn fold by the villain is reasonable when they have a small Ax (which they're going to have very often from the BB) with no additional outs to improve. Villain is going to have plenty of better Ax, a few two pair hands and some hands that can draw to straights and flushes that they'd want to continue with.

I have no problem with your bet sizing there. You're trying to get strong hands that you beat to call and/or maybe even come over the top on an increasingly draw heavy board. You could argue betting smaller to target a larger portion of your opponent's range when you have the nuts, but there's no guarantee Ax calls for, say, 1/2 pot instead of 3/4 pot.

Hand 2 is a complete mess.

If you're going to play Q4o from the BB that way (and I never would suggest doing anything other than folding that hand) then just shove your 24BB for max fold equity. Your play is a massive exploit and you have to be pretty comfortable that you can get your opponent to fold a ton to your 3-bet, because once you get called you're pretty much hosed.

Look, did your opponent make a mistake by calling your flop shove? In a vacuum, I would think so.

But if you're 3-betting Q4o from the BB off 24BB and then jamming the flop, I'm guessing you've done wacky things in the past. And if that's the case, it's possible your opponent thinks you'd do this incredibly wide, which might lead him to believe he's getting the right price to call with overcards because you can have all sorts of junk there.

EDIT: Board texture matters here, too. Jamming for full pot on a dry board is also unusual, and your opponent has a hand that blocks your obvious small preflop 3-bet that would want to jam that flop. (it's less likely you have KK/QQ there) Sure you can have AA or AJ, but maybe in your opponents' mind you don't have a lot of really strong hands here and then he feels like at a minimum all of his Kx and Qx outs are live. It probably is better in that spot to just downbet there if you're going to bet at all, knowing that we're done with the hand if he calls or shoves.

But the easiest thing to do is just not play this hand.

Last edited by jpgiro; 12-05-2021 at 07:00 PM.
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote
12-05-2021 , 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nath
As far as bluffing-- with your stack size a 3-bet shove is better for a bluff. Generally when bluffing, you want a hand that has some equity when called (pairs, suited Ax, broadway, maybe medium suited connectors) and some kind of read that villain is raising light and will fold. The less you have of one, the more you want of the other. (For the theoretical extremes, it doesn't matter if never folds to a 3-bet if you have aces; if he's raising light here and folds 100% of the time to a shove, then it doesn't matter what your cards are.)

I would like you to give me your thoughts on VPIP PR and FOLD to PF 3BET stats on such range of potential 3bet plays coming from hero.
Sometimes I try to look at that and it seems to be unreliable stats, for exemple, his vpip is 30+ and fold to 3bet is 80 but he doesnt seem to be folding to me 3bet 80% of the time.
Yeah so, if you have range of these stats, or perhaps other stats, I could look into, to know if he's a valid candidate to 3bet bluff light, or other types of 3bets.
What is wrong with my value bet and my bluff? Quote

      
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