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TT with 15bb at utg

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10-26-2011 , 12:39 PM

jackyl

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 89

villain is fairly tight, pfr and 3bet about 6%. fold?

Poker Stars No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50.00/t100.00 Blinds - 7 players - View hand 1494232
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP: t1575.00 15.75 BBs
CO: t1580.00 15.80 BBs
BTN: t1330.00 13.30 BBs
SB: t4680.00 46.80 BBs
BB: t1295.00 12.95 BBs
Hero (UTG): t1493.00 14.93 BBs
UTG+1: t1547.00 15.47 BBs

Pre Flop: (t150) Hero is UTG with T

Hero raises to t200, 3 folds, BTN raises to t1330, 2 folds, Hero calls t1130

Flop: (t2810) A

(2 players)

Turn: (t2810) 8

(2 players)

River: (t2810) J

(2 players)

Last edited by jackyl; 10-26-2011 at 12:45 PM.

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10-26-2011 , 03:08 PM

siebenacht

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,610

Why are you 2xing in the first place? If it is to induce a light shove, then just call imo.

Im actually not a big fan of the 2x, bc it may lead to sticky spots otf. Just shove pre imo.

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10-26-2011 , 04:09 PM

TomoDaK

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,837

I think shoving 15bb in this spot is nonsense 99% of the time. Minraise/decide every time

You gotta call a shove here, we only need like bit more than 40% equity after ICM. We've got a bit more than vs 99/AK iirc so he'd have to be really tight for me to want to fold this.

Basically unless you know he's a true nit or is aware of how tight your range is you should be snapping

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10-26-2011 , 05:11 PM

siebenacht

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,610

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomoDaK

I think shoving 15bb in this spot is nonsense 99% of the time.

Come up with arguments, plz. Don't see how this is bad. Especially with hands like TT. Im doing a lot of minraises/limps (creative play) as well, but to say shoving 15bb is bad... i don't get it.

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10-26-2011 , 05:23 PM

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Shoving 15xBB UTG is too face up. You are pushing 10xpot and you only get called dominated or flipping. It is OK at low stakes where you get some donk calls.

Miniraise, 2.5x, and limping are all OK.

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10-26-2011 , 06:40 PM

pushy26

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 659

Limping is ok? So we're basically setmining or folding to a raise? Doesn't seem ok to me.

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10-26-2011 , 09:10 PM

What is folding?

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 92

Quote:

Originally Posted by betgo

Shoving 15xBB UTG is too face up. You are pushing 10xpot and you only get called dominated or flipping. It is OK at low stakes where you get some donk calls.

Not quite sure why this is so face up? If you do this with a range of hands then it's not so obvious.

What would you class as a donk call?

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10-26-2011 , 11:09 PM

penfold

banned

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 2,279

Quote:

Originally Posted by siebenacht

Come up with arguments, plz. Don't see how this is bad. Especially with hands like TT. Im doing a lot of minraises/limps (creative play) as well, but to say shoving 15bb is bad... i don't get it.

Because if you shove this 100 times and rasie call it 100 times you will make more money from the latter, mainly because worse is shoving over your raise than what calls the shove. Totally standard theory.

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10-27-2011 , 12:22 AM

VikingsFan93

STTF

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,948

I think that 10 10, AK is the bottom of the range that you can profitably shove here, and it is within the edge of being a shove or fold. My standard play would be to min raise or r250 and evaluate from there. As played depends on my read on button whether he would read our EP raise as very tight and adjust his 3 bet range. In game I would call and take a note.

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10-27-2011 , 01:14 AM

#10

michty6

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 4,041

Raise/call>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Limping>>> >>>>>>>>Shoving>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Foldin g

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10-27-2011 , 01:54 AM

#11

djz

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 2,480

how is limping almost 10% of stack good...leads to too many ****ty spots and i dont think a hand that you dominate is ever shoving over you (except 99 i guess)

just open

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10-27-2011 , 02:02 AM

#12

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

limping is ok?
what.
limping is not > shoving lol

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10-27-2011 , 04:13 AM

#13

Monkey Banana

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 40,103

Quote:

Originally Posted by michty6

Raise/call>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Limping>>> >>>>>>>>Shoving>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Foldin g

**** no.

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10-27-2011 , 04:24 AM

#14

acbarone

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,869

But SNG Wiz never said anything about min-raising!

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10-27-2011 , 10:28 AM

#15

carlos_084

newbie

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 23

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

limping is ok?
what.
limping is not > shoving lol

+ 1, How do you balance your limping range UTG with 15bbs?

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10-27-2011 , 10:40 AM

#16

TomoDaK

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,837

Quote:

Originally Posted by siebenacht

Come up with arguments, plz. Don't see how this is bad. Especially with hands like TT. Im doing a lot of minraises/limps (creative play) as well, but to say shoving 15bb is bad... i don't get it.

When you shove 15bb everyone just clicks fold...oh look that tight guy just insta shipped 15bb bye bye ace jack

You can raise/call vs just about any single person, get away vs 2 shoves, have donks flat you with dumb stuff.

Minraise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shove

What is this talk of limping? Maybe if I had KK+... limping tens here is just garbage

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10-27-2011 , 11:51 AM

#17

siebenacht

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 3,610

Thx, Tomo and Betgo. Good points.
Maybe betgo could explain though why he thinks limping is ok.

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10-27-2011 , 11:55 AM

#18

Cpt.Hero

adept

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 1,020

But there are also counter arguments for minraising. If we get flatcalled we have a very hard time playing OOP on the Flop. It just sucks to bet/fold the flop with this stacksize. Also: if they reshove a little bit lighter than calling our shove is not a big advantage, because if they fold these AJ etc Hands we win the blinds 100%. I am too lazy right now to do the math, but i dont think that we have a huge edge there by raising.
From late Position its a different story, because we have often times position if we get flatcalled and people resteal much wider so that a Raise is better than shoving.

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10-27-2011 , 05:28 PM

#19

acbarone

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 4,869

The biggest counter argument to min raising is you suck postflop

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10-27-2011 , 11:02 PM

#20

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

Quote:

Originally Posted by siebenacht

Thx, Tomo and Betgo. Good points.
Maybe betgo could explain though why he thinks limping is ok.

I said raising is best. The limp is good if it will induce raises or pushes from dominated hands. At higher stakes, the limp may look too strong. It is easier to fold preflop or postflop to the wrong flop and/or action if you limp.

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10-28-2011 , 12:26 AM

#21

jackyl

enthusiast

Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 89

I did not think of limping tbh. I guess we are calling off lighter with limping than min-raising though, right?

when I min-raise, I hope to take down binds or fold to early position overshove. life is often easier. but when I got this spot, I was like, oh no, damn it, I have to use my brain to think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by betgo

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10-28-2011 , 12:47 AM

#22

Darmaiad

adept

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 730

IMO by now it should be clear that raising/evaluating is the way to go. But:

I doubt OP's spot is an easy call. We need 38.2 before ICM tax (around 4-5% at this point?) and we have 38.9% equity vs 99+,AQo+.

Do you think the typical reg/BE player shoves wider after seeing the UTG raise from a more or less typical reg??

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10-28-2011 , 12:48 AM

#23

slayerv1fan

Go to my Twitch Channel

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 18,906

Quote:

Originally Posted by acbarone

But SNG Wiz never said anything about min-raising!

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10-28-2011 , 04:26 AM

#24

Monkey Banana

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 40,103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darmaiad

IMO by now it should be clear that raising/evaluating is the way to go.

"Tomo says so" is not the same thing as "it is known".

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10-28-2011 , 04:31 AM

#25

betgo

banned

Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 28,590

I can't see that pushing 15xBB UTG no ante is a good play with any hand. I would think you wouldn't push QQ+ and pushing this hand isn't great.

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