Poker Stars $200+$15 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG+1: t1500
UTG+2: t1090
MP1: t1870
Hero (MP2): t1365
CO: t1685
BTN: t1415
SB: t1625
BB: t1540
UTG: t1410

Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is MP2 with T Q
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t30, 1 fold, Hero calls t30, 1 fold, BTN calls t30, SB calls t15, BB checks

Flop: (t150) Q A Q (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets t120, Hero calls t120, BTN folds, SB folds, BB calls t120

Turn: (t510) 6 (3 players)
BB bets t350, UTG+2 calls t350, Hero ????????????????????????????

Was in the first level and dont really have any reads on the table...

What do u do here??? This is a tricky spot and wondering what u guys think...

Don't limp preflop at this level with that hand ever. Now that you're here I don't know how we aren't raising the flop but just fold now and save the chips I guess.

u got the flipping nuts man whats so tricky?

raise flop.

More likely to be 2nd level if BB t30, but why on earth are you limping MP with TQs?

In this exact spot, which I'm unlikely to be in, I'd probably just shove and hope I don't run into AQ / KQ / QJ (all possible limped hands pre-flop) or AA (less likely).

wha-wha-wha-wha-wha-wha-what would you do?

I'd fold pre.

fold preflop

Dude, if you aren't happy with that flop, wtf are you playing QT for in the first place? Stack off without qualms obv.

I think this hand is tricky because of the prize structure.

It takes some time & effort to get into Step 4, and last four players get nothing. So it might be wise to fold wtih more than 1000 chips left.

However, as others said, push it right now, you did not play QT to fold it on AQQ flop. But next time, make sure you'll lay this crap down PF.

+1

BB overcalled and is now betting turn... Most people dont take this line when going full so he has most likely Qx. UTG+2 either has an ace and still thinks its good?!?!!, made a backdoor flush draw in spades, or just hit trips 66s (very very unlikely). You are ahead of most of the hands in the BB's range, and cry if he shows JQ or KQ.

I might limp with this on the button or Co if there was +3 limpers but def fold on MP.

Can't see myself getting away from it without any reads.

What's so problematic in this hand?

Call on turn.
Fold to a 3rd barrell and valuebet if it is checked to you on river.

@guys folding this pf:
We are here rel. deep vs in avg soft villains in a middle-stakes-STT with very good odds due to the first limper, so folding is so much spewy, u need to over-limp this hand if you want to get a ROI >5% and at 4th step-level, there is much more possible - for at least if you wanna think and not 16-table it.

I think I get my >5% ROI by folding these hands, not calling LOL.

What you are trying to advocate here is against opinion of 90% winning regs here, so maybe try to think about it again. Odds don't matter much here. There are tons of things which may get bad, like raise behind, catching TP with great reverse implied odds, calling FDs, etc. You are just not deep enough in SNG's to do stuff like this.

So be it, I beat >90% of winnings regs here and in high stakes sngs.

ODDS ALWAYS MATTERS.

There are tons of things that can go well, like having with Trips-TK+Flush-Draw-Blockers the very best hand for example.

So we fold, but don't are in problems

we can't catch TPs and vs those we are very ahead.

What is wrong with that with having Trips on your hand.

We are deep enough to do +EV stuff a lot.

kamel -
In a 5-way pot, QT is dominated the vast majority of the time. With 87s (maaaybe T9s) or lower, one could possibly make a better argument for trying to see a cheap flop. The problem is that the only way you can avoid big domination trouble is if you check/fold all one-pair hands (in this situation, hitting a Q-hi flop is more of a liability than anything else) and only continue if you flop a monster draw.

Even if you have a huge draw, though, someone is just far too likely to A) have TPGK+ and B) not fold, ever (villians are that bad, and we're just not deep enough).

So at best, you end up chasing a ~50% equity draw for a bit more than a double-up, which cEV/$EV-wise isn't a very great proposition.


Note that if we had any pocket pair, we would probably at least call here because we can see a flop, hit a set or check/fold. But with an actual drawing hand that needs to see more than flop, with four opponents in the pot, we're just not likely enough to hit our draw for cheap – which, when less than 30 blinds deep, is the only profitable situation for a hand like QTs.

On the one hand, QTs in a limped multiway pot is not that often dominated as a lot of dominating hands will just raise us out of the pot pf.
On the other hand, with 5 players paying in, we don't need to be good so often, just as we get good odds.
And nobody will go broke, just because we have hit top pair.

So, you are ready to put chips in with a weaker hand?
But not with a good 1-gapper suited with high card strength.

Come on, just play propper postflop. We don't play a $3 SnG and whoever has the balls to buyin into a $200+ SnG should be capable to play postflop with fishes.
I don't recommend to go broke just because we might have hit a Top-Pairish-Hand, but we also don't need to be ultra-nittish postflop with a most likely TPGK or 2nd-3rd-Nut-Drawing-Hand.

I understand you right: You don't want to play a Top25 hand because villains are THAT BAD?

Sorry, Learn to play postflop before buying in into a high stakes SnG.
There is no reason to avoid postflop play with a reasonable hand vs weak opponents, even if we are not that deep (and we have indeed HighCardStrength to negiote that un-deep-nees).

It appears we have a chever replacement yay! What high stakes sngs are you beating kamel?

All, allthough, I'm only 4tabling them and that makes it muuuch easier to outplay jorj &co -- and I'm only playing them for fun. However, does it matter to this concrete OP's hand?

You know that even though most here play a particular strategy, it's possible to win STTs in other ways, such as being good at poker? Please do not try to drive off promising and thoughtful posters just because you cannot understand what they're trying to say.

I really think you should try to think about and answer what he posted in the post above yours. If you cannot refute it in kind and all you have to offer is to parrot the standard expressed by other posters, then please realise you have nothing to offer at all.

Kamel, if what you say is true than this needs some explanantion (and I know I should refrain from using such arguments anyway):

I'll try to put it in some context. 90% of regs who are top at their levels ($16 - $109) play very very tight early levels. This is how they differ from fish who play many hands, and in my experience, there are almost NO EXCEPTIONS. You play tight -> you have results. You play loose -> you suck. I know that one of the reasons is multitabling - if you play many tables, you can focus more on postflop play and can observe your opponents much more, so you can play more hands profitably. However, I think that this does not matter THAT much - the difference is not so huge, there are lot of hands that just can not be profitable no matter what.

I assumed (and that was my mistake) that you are one of those fish/bad regs so I wrote short answer. Now you say that you are top HS reg, beating HS regs playing tight. This is new concept for me. MAYBE you are right, that at some point you need to adjust your game this way so you can beat top regs.

I'd be very thankful to you if you could let us know your PS nick to have some evidence that what you are saying really works.

Even if you are right that this can be played profitably, you are certainly wrong here. It is not spewy and you do not need to overlimp here to have 5+ ROI.

Well, this is a higher sng ($215) with a different structure (10min levels, no "really" bubble as 1st 6 gets paid but different). So it has more common with a cash game than with a classic 50/30/20 sng.

There are a lot of speculative hands early that CAN be played. Here, QTs is such a one. I understand, that usually the 16-tabler won't play and does not do something wrong in a standard $60sng, but given the above special sng structure, you should try to play anyway some more hands like you would hopefully also do in a cash game (vs this kind of opponents).

Just because someone does not play like you would expect, that doesn't mean he is that bad.

I've never said this. I have been a middle stakes reg, but lost interess in sngs just as they are boring if you play them 12hours a day IMHO. Nowadays, I play mainly high stakes MTTs, but mix from time to time high stakes sngs in, especially the higher steps on stars.

Just observe Kelisitaan who plays MidStakes NL HE CashGames for example. He exploits even on 24tables the too-tightness of cash game regulars. And he is not the only one (but of course the most famous). It's not that new of a concept.
In MTTs, most high roi winners are playing more than 20% pf. Have you ever looked how e.g. djk... makes his money.

You don't need to adjust in normal sngs. But you can. And OP has a hand with weak players in a higher buyin that is more comparable to a cash game than a sng. That's why I feel it is need to take the good odds when they come, allthough 90% here might play different.


Just try what I say, I do it all the day. But I won't give my PS nick.

You need it, otherwise you only have a winning rate like all the other higher stakes regs (and nearly nobody of them has >5 ROI).
It would not be spewy in a standard sng to let this situation go, but given this specific structure, it would be. I should have underlined it more in my previous post, but given 10min levels + weak opponents + relativly deep + no hard bubble to come next time (with 3 players there will be one - but this is far away), you should not give up good odds when they are there.

this is a sattelite sngo it has less in common with a cash game than a classic sngo..

i dont know why you bring up laggy cash/mtt players like you are going to start outplaying people by limping preflop with a marginal hand; odds are with this mindset you are just going to **** away chips trying to exploit sngo regs for being too tight

and im not really sure what kind of odds you keep talking about only one person has limped pf and he only has a 2/3 starting stack, also doesnt make sense how someone can possibly be spewy by choosing to fold pf rather than limp

stop talking out of your ass plz its not like winning sngo regs will suddenly have a >5% roi if they start limping hands like this

probably doesnt matter that much if you limp or fold hands like this as long as you play pretty well post flop but your justifications seem pretty bad

oh and the hand in question prob just flip a coin i guess i dont think bb donks an ace as a bluff often but u also beat a bunch of qs the bb can have

I wouldn't recommend a structure where 2/3 of a field get paid and that even linear as a classic satellite structure.

Because they make a ........ kind of money with it and know what they are doing? And because, they are not fish, just as a random poster here thought, because we are playing >= 20% pf.

ODDS STILL MATTER. Here we get direct 1:3 (what would be only bad if someone before us == the fishy limpy holds QQ+ direct) or so what is very o.k. for QTs, especially in this structure and will get indirect much better odds as it is so likely some guys weill still limp behind us.
And if other regs don't like to limp it, well, then they don't like the money behind it, nothing else I said -- and yes, that's a kind of beeing too tight and spewy.

I'm talking of 1:3 odds preflop or better with a good, 1suited-gapper and a huge postflop edge, that might be doubtfull if I really read a lot of answers to this thread seriously, but most cashgame or MTT-players will have.

stop talking out of your ass plz its not like winning sngo regs will suddenly have a >5% roi if they start limping hands like this

If you play good, try to play this hand postflop, and then it would be spewy to fold, nothing else I recommend. If you don't play good postflop, don't buyIn into $200+ tournament.