Hey guys, just wondering what your thoughts are on a 'high risk' play which involves shoving like 6-8 BBs from early position VERY WIDE with anywhere between 5-9 players remaining to avoid being raped and pillaged by the blinds... I usually make this play at the 75/150 and 100/200 level with any suited gapper cards, Kxs, Ax, stuff like that. Do any of you have any advice for when to make this play? the frequency to make this play? and maybe even recommend other strategys to avoid being in this position in the 1st place(if there are any that is)?

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Try to identify that your stack is getting to that point earlier in the blind rotation and make the shove from BTN or CO instead. I don't usually make the play you described any higher than 6 BBs unless blinds are about to go up, but I suck so what do I know.

I watched my friend last night shove 7d8d into 4 players UTG, he had 4.5 BB left - I thought for sure Wiz would say this was a no-no, but it actually came out pretty close once I set the calling ranges of the two big stacks to around 15-20%, which I felt was fair.

I'm still fumbling around with ICM strategy, but ICM seems to dictate that it's better to shove bad cards into fewer players than mediocre/average cards into more players.

Well, in the situation you described, that shoving is perfectly fine and is a pretty good hand in that spot. With 5 BB on the button, you can shove any two. So with 4.5 BB in the CO you can basically shove anything that isn't complete trash (Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx, T6+, all suited connectors, suited 1 gappers, etc.)

Your second comment is actually pretty correct too. That is why you can shove so wide from the small blind (< 10 BB = any two). When more people behind you are to act, it goes without saying the is a higher chance of one of them waking up with a hand, even if they are calling fairly tight. However if you are shoving against one or two players and even if they know you are shoving any two cards, they cannot really call you with trash hands unless you are in that dead 1.5 BB zone.

With that being said, the OP is making a pretty large mistake here. First, there is a pretty big difference between shoving against 5 players and shoving against 9, but you still should be fairly tight regardless. Where in an early position at a relatively full table, I am still only shoving with strong hands that have showdown value. The only reason not to raise here would be to maximize fold equity to to avoid awkward post flop spots since we're already pot committed. With 8 BB, you can shove 66+, and ATo/A9s. It widens up at 6 BB, but still nowhere near as loose as you are describing. Shoving Ax and Kx also is very, very bad because you will often be dominated when you are called, whereas with suited connectors you are essentially a flip.

The only time I've found myself shoving super wide UTG at a full table is with a stack of 3 BB, where I will have no fold equity once the blinds hit me next round. In this situation a shove is -EV, but I believe it is less -EV than all future spots if I do not shove. With 6-8 BB you are not this desperate yet.

As mentioned by the other poster, you can shove 6-8 BB MUCH wider in the later positions where the number of layers to act is less. This could be a solution to avoiding the need to shove so wide UTG. As a rule of thumb, you can shove any two with 10 BB or less from the SB, any two from the BB with 5 BB, any any two from CO with 4 BB. The list of ranges goes on and on though, if you want me to type out everything, just PM me or something.

But all in all, you should not be shoving this wide from UTG with 6-8BB.

a) Re: your title, shoving will not help you to avoid going through the blinds, unless you bust out of the tournament.

b) This seems relevant: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/36...ations-268628/

#1 made me laugh.

The difference though between that thread and his question is that this question is much more basic in my opinion. The other concerned pushing wide with a stack that was about to become nothing and concerned future -EV moves. This question however sounds like a huge leak on behalf of the OP, who is shoving super wide when he should still be relatively tight. I'm just commenting on this so the OP does not mistake that information to justify shoving as wide as he is, which is a leak in my opinion.

why have i seen a pro who plays the highest level sngs make this play on a number of occasions then? saw it on snggrinders.com

I dont see how it is a "leak", i have identified it is a high risk shove and i know the consequenses of making this play and i know the TEXTBOOK robotic move every time is a fold icm wise... i was looking for some ways around having to make this shove, like someone suggested shove from button and CO earlier to avoid in the 1st place... fair enough but what happens if i get delt trash the blinds just move up to 75/150 and i have 1100 chips left facing the BB next hand.., are you saying i should fold 910s and shove basictly any 2 from SB/B/CO 1st chance i get (after i pass the BB and have -950 chips left)?

The only time I'd may the UTG shove with a marginal hand is when I'm at 3 BB and going through the blinds again completely destroys any fold equity I have, so it's kind of a -EV shove to avoid future moves that are more -EV.

And the thing about shoving from a later position but are dealt trash hands.
Honestly, depending on your stack size, there are many situations where you can shove even with a trash hand. When you are playing in the high blind level with a short stack, your equity is coming from your opponent's folding when you shove and so much from the showdowns you win when your opponents call. I'd rather be shoving trash against one player than a mediocre holding against five players.

You also sound as if you are uncomfortable sitting with a stack of less than 8 BB or so. If this is the case, maybe you just need to be a little more patient and wait for good spots to shove with 5-6 BB, as many will certainly come up. In a SnG, you aren't really considered desperate until you are at about 2-4 BB.

As far as seeing this play on snggrinders, which games were you watching? Are you sure there weren't other things involved like effective stack sizes or bubble abuse? Also, UTG on the bubble is much different than being UTG at a fuller table. Are you misinterpreting information? And if you do have a snggrinders account and need a better explanation of shoving garbage hands, watch Glitlr's videos. I think there are only two, but they will really help.

Glitlr always shoves garbage. He's a donk. Don't follow him he's lost.



Only kidding Matt obv!

The dynamics might be slightly different than what we're referring to. The difference between 1 or 2bb's in certain contexts (for example, this thread and the thread that I linked) could be monumental to the profitability of some of your plays.

Also, the possibility exists that he might just play bad, or make certain small mistakes. Pros can do that too.

Plus if it's the $525s or whatever, there are quite a bit more metagame issues.

OP, instead of aping what you might see in a video, use the ICM tools to learn which part of your range you can shove profitably against various calling ranges, and why (which you have apparently done). Be aware of opportunities where Villains are likely to be tight, and shove wide only in those spots.

As AMT noted you have to pay the blinds either way, and stealing isn't really going to help you all that much, and getting the money in bad isn't the answer in general. Sometimes you have to accept SLIGHTLY -EV spots as a short-stack, but that's a pretty advanced concept. The first step is to avoid spazzing out when you get short.

Pretty much this.

+1


LOL