Here is a post I read in the Full Ring digest that has made me deathly afraid of min-raises (post flop). I'm not sure if it applies here as we always want to get it in with an overpair, but I wonder if theres any way to use this info and lose less vs a minraise.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=131987

I'm just dabbling here and there with it right now, my primary game is still nl100. Here's to both of us being there full time soon! :-)

it's not that simple flopton, when you 4-bet against a cold 3-bet, you are going to get called a lot. So, it's not simply a function of preflop EV.

So for example you might think the SB is 3 betting with top 8%, and then calling with top 2% then maybe (JJ+, AKs)? Or maybe even wider than that like PPs wanting to hit a set vs you? He'd only have to call 72 more into a pot of 165.

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $20.00
Hero (UTG): $214.65
MP: $172.35
CO: $100.50
BTN: $139.70
SB: $110.10

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with A J
Hero raises to $3, 2 folds, BTN calls $3, SB calls $2.50, BB calls $2

Flop: ($12.00) 8 J 6 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($12.00) T (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $8, BTN folds, SB folds, BB calls $8

River: ($28.00) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $9

villain is standart guy not buying in for 100bbs.
i think he calls with worse. is not betting flop a sin ?

Yeah definitely bet flop. I don't like the river bet with the 4 flush

It's such a sic flop that not betting is ok. Some many hands that are going to call you have great equity. As played, I'm fine with the river bet if he's a complete donk.

Hmm actually I didn't notice that the flop is 4 handed. I'm fine with checking in that case. I'd still check behind the river though

but the equity is about as thin as it will ever be on that river.

Yea, I think I missed the fourth club.

So I discovered Full Tilt's Cap NL games where the cap is 30 bb's. Games actually seem pretty soft so I think I'm going to experiment with it for awhile. Trying to determine a standard PF raise and PF range. Seems like 2.5-3 bb open is optimal as it leaves enough room to cbet flop and fold.

3 betting loses a lot of it's luster as it's almost never right to 3 bet and fold given the fact that you usually getting close to 2:1 on the all in call.

I would think suited connectors and small pocket pairs lose a ton of their value. Pretty sure opening with small pocket pairs from EP is throwing money away. While hands like KT can be played a lot more profitably in a 30 bb game compared to a 100 bb one.

blackize, you got any thoughts? It seems like these games would really profitable for good shortstackers.

DD,
I agree with all of that however you can three bet fold vs. people who 2.5x or minraise pre, but a lot of people are dumb and will just full pot. In experimenting with those games most people were pretty passive.

Yeah, it's not really somewhere that a lot of TAGs or LAGs go, more maniacs and fish in my brief experience there.

Everyone sitting 30bbs deep is quite a bit different from my sitting 20bb deep on 100bb tables.

You can probably raise 3x in those games. I doubt you'll be getting 3bet enough that opening less is necessary, and you're going to get the blinds to fold more often when you're stealing, win more with a cbet, and generally charge donks more to come in with worse hands pf.

Basically I would just 3bet a tight range in those games, play hands that make decent top pair(still paying attention to position), and raise 2.5 or 3x. Other than that you can probably play similarly to your fullstack game.

This is my first hand at this table so I have no image yet.

Open limper is a 92/15/7 donkey.

Button is 21/10/3.89 and has won 21 ptbb/100 in the 400 hands I have on him so I'm pretty sure he's paying some attention to how many hands the donkey is playing.

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $363.40
Hero (BB): $200.00
UTG: $200.00
UTG+1: $301.00
UTG+2: $226.90
MP1: $287.70
MP2: $99.75
CO: $200.00
BTN: $282.50

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with J J
4 folds, MP2 calls $2, 1 fold, BTN raises to $9, 1 fold, Hero calls $7, MP2 calls $7

Flop: ($28.00) 9 T 3 (3 players)
Hero ? Whats the plan?

Not a bad spot to 3 bet and of course get it all in pre if the donkey wants to.

As you deduced he can have a lot of hands here. I guess going for the check-raise cause he can have a lot of hands that will cbet and a lot of his cbetting hands can fold to a c-raise, but they still may have good equity against you and he's going to be a little less likely to be bluffing air with a really loose player being involved.

Seems kinda sucky if donkey donks and then button raises. He can do that with hands that you beat, but probably not often enough that you can stop him.

Checking through can be bad too.

You might consider donking and folding to a raise from button. He's going to be likely to put you on something decent with the loose fish in there, so I don't think you can continue if he raises. OTOH, you will often be called by the loose fish and be able to value town him.

There are a fair number of 92/15 or w/e crazy preflop people that are very different post flop. Without knowing this you can't fold to him, but you gotta watch the donkeys.

Ok, I give my post a C-. Time for bed.

my drunk opinion is that i really respect 21/10's iso raises cause they love to see flops. They love to call till you check to them and then raise when that happens. So, prelfop, if someone limps before them they jizz in their pants about the huge range they can over limp so they can see a flop. So, when they iso raise they have a hand. But, I can't fold JJ pre ever in a cash game. So, I call and play it passive.

Unfortunately, a 21/10/3.9 is betting a lot when checked to...but I'm still not good enough to fold this flop, especially with backdoor draws. So, my plan is to c/c this flop. unimproved I'm c/f turn.

Cha,
I would three bet pre, but flatting is okay. I would donk the flop so the fish can call with gutters and stuff and fold is the 21/10 raises.

Previous hand continued....

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $363.40
Hero (BB): $200.00
UTG: $200.00
UTG+1: $301.00
UTG+2: $226.90
MP1: $287.70
MP2: $99.75
CO: $200.00
BTN: $282.50

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with J J
4 folds, MP2 calls $2, 1 fold, BTN raises to $9, 1 fold, Hero calls $7, MP2 calls $7

Flop: ($28.00) 9 T 3 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $2, BTN raises to $19, Hero ?

I checked intending to c/r because at the time I was thinking I'm ahead of both their ranges and I figured button would bet. Plus I didn't want to get floated while I'm oop with this hand because so many turn cards would suck in a bigger pot oop.

Judging from the replies I got so far, it looks like leading might be better, but can you guys tell me what you think of my thought process there?

Anyway, now that I'm here, should I follow through and c/r?

I don't really think there's a huge difference between c-raising and folding to a reraise from button and calling and playing passively.

Sometimes you have a hand like a big draw and every play you could make would seem good and sometimes there's a hand like this where every possible play seems bad.

I guess maybe I'm changing my mind and going with Devin here. Your position against the button is pretty tough, so think about the fish. If you raise here he's gone. If you call he can come along with a lot of crap.

BTN is 40/5

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

MP: $100.85
CO: $28.90
BTN: $87.40
SB: $15.45
BB: $172.70
Hero (UTG): $175.60

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with Q Q
Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, CO calls $4, BTN calls $4, SB calls $3.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($17.00) T Q 4 (4 players)
SB bets $11.45 all in, Hero calls $11.45, CO calls $11.45, BTN calls $11.45

Turn: ($62.80) A (4 players - 1 is all in)
Hero checks, CO bets $13.45 all in, BTN calls $13.45, Hero raises to $160.15 all in

yep you have odds to fill up even if they both have a flush and you're still good a lot

Is leading the turn better or even RR the flop?

Hey you guys, I'm running fairly well, not at last due to your advice I suppose

An interesting hand from today, I'm unsure about my handstrength in unraised pots, how is just calling the riverraise?
Villain is a pretty passive donkey kong, I have been pretty aggro lately.

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $56.30
MP: $49.70
CO: $77.10
BTN: $68.85
SB: $17.95
Hero (BB): $54.10

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with 6 5
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($1.75) K 2 7 (3 players)
Hero bets $1.20, UTG folds, CO calls $1.20

Turn: ($4.15) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.80, CO calls $2.80

River: ($9.75) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $7, CO raises to $14, Hero calls $7

yes and yes imo. with that many people to the flop, you probably have a lot of outs to avoid.

On the turn, there are too many people in the pot, and no side pot, to really expect them to bet a wide range. However, I think they'll still call you with a lot of worse hands. Getting shoved on sucks, but you have enough equity to call even against a flush.

since, looks fine to me, but I bet more on the turn. On the river, I think they show up there with like KQ enough, or some random hand that had a club enough to call. If they were totally an aggro monkey, I'd consider shoving.