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STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2

03-04-2008 , 11:12 PM
Quote:
Hey, I guess it's been a couple of days but I wanted to follow up on this since several solid players didn't like it. Obviously, I haven't been playing cash long, only about 78K hands or so, but I was looking for spots to open up my game beyond 16/13 into something more 25/22ish, and opening SC's and PP's in all positions seemed like the way to go. 85s is definitely at the lower end though.
Suited connectors and a handful of suited 2-gappers are fine to play UTG and it's enough (provided you're opening progressively wider as you move toward the button) to get your VPIP and PFR higher.

I only open suited 2-gappers from the button except for in unusual circumstances.

BTW - I think you're mostly playing nl100 when you play cash? I am playing nl100 and I've noticed a few things that have caused me to open fewer hands than when I first moved to that level:

* Most opponents are oblivious to your image unless its LAG (meaning you can play tighter and still get paid off)
* A lot of opponents seem to watch CR/Leggo videos and are squeezing, 3-betting, and just generally trying to play more aggressive preflop but they lack postflop skills or do these things in bad spots

Right now I'm playing somewhere around 18/15/3 and that seems to be working out a lot better for me. Maybe it just fits my personality better or whatever, and playing looser will work better for you, but don't strive for it just for the sake of having cool looking numbers.

(I'm not saying you are falling into that trap but I think I was a little bit.)
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-04-2008 , 11:41 PM
Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $96.95
UTG: $183.40
MP: $94.50
CO: $114.00
BTN: $120.55
Hero (SB): $113.05

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with Q Q
1 fold, MP raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $14, 1 fold, MP calls $10

Flop: ($29.00) A A 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $20, MP calls $20

Turn: ($69.00) 3 (2 players)
Hero...?

No real reads on villain other than he seems TAGish but not enough hands to say for sure.

I've 3-bet four times in the last several hands and 3-bet this villains UTG open on the previous hand. (Also with QQ) This was the first hand I was called.

I bet the flop because I didn't want to lose initiative and I thought he could call with smaller overpairs. Not sure if this is good but I hate checking OOP in a 3-bet pot.

I'm pretty sure I still have the best hand but not sure how to get the most value when I'm ahead.

Last edited by Jbrochu; 03-04-2008 at 11:47 PM.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-04-2008 , 11:44 PM
I'd check the flop usually

On that turn I'd c/r all in since I expect him to be floating a decent amount
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrochu
Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $96.95
UTG: $183.40
MP: $94.50
CO: $114.00
BTN: $120.55
Hero (SB): $113.05

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with Q Q
1 fold, MP raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $14, 1 fold, MP calls $10

Flop: ($29.00) A A 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $20, MP calls $20

Turn: ($69.00) 3 (2 players)
Hero...?

No real reads on villain other than he seems TAGish but not enough hands to say for sure.

I've 3-bet four times in the last several hands and 3-bet this villains UTG open on the previous hand. (Also with QQ) This was the first hand I was called.

I bet the flop because I didn't want to lose initiative and I thought he could call with smaller overpairs. Not sure if this is good but I hate checking OOP in a 3-bet pot.

I'm pretty sure I still have the best hand but not sure how to get the most value when I'm ahead.
I think betting the flop is fine, but I'd bet more. His flop call is interesting, he'd call with a lot of pairs he'd call pf and all A's hoping to extract. I don't thinkd you're equity here is all that great as I'd put him on the flop at AJs+, and JJ+ so you beat JJ, and draw with QQ and you're behind the rest. I understand that your read is that you probably got under his skin, but imo I would c/f and IF your read is correct, he will often check behind on and after the turn.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrochu
Suited connectors and a handful of suited 2-gappers are fine to play UTG and it's enough (provided you're opening progressively wider as you move toward the button) to get your VPIP and PFR higher.

I only open suited 2-gappers from the button except for in unusual circumstances.

BTW - I think you're mostly playing nl100 when you play cash? I am playing nl100 and I've noticed a few things that have caused me to open fewer hands than when I first moved to that level:

* Most opponents are oblivious to your image unless its LAG (meaning you can play tighter and still get paid off)
* A lot of opponents seem to watch CR/Leggo videos and are squeezing, 3-betting, and just generally trying to play more aggressive preflop but they lack postflop skills or do these things in bad spots

Right now I'm playing somewhere around 18/15/3 and that seems to be working out a lot better for me. Maybe it just fits my personality better or whatever, and playing looser will work better for you, but don't strive for it just for the sake of having cool looking numbers.

(I'm not saying you are falling into that trap but I think I was a little bit.)
this is a very good post and has taken me 8 months to figure out... not by myself.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 01:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GtrHtr
I think betting the flop is fine, but I'd bet more. His flop call is interesting, he'd call with a lot of pairs he'd call pf and all A's hoping to extract. I don't thinkd you're equity here is all that great as I'd put him on the flop at AJs+, and JJ+ so you beat JJ, and draw with QQ and you're behind the rest. I understand that your read is that you probably got under his skin, but imo I would c/f and IF your read is correct, he will often check behind on and after the turn.
Wtf? In the games I play if I 3bet OOP TAGs are calling with their whole range.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 01:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackize
Wtf? In the games I play if I 3bet OOP TAGs are calling with their whole range.
table selection ftw
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GtrHtr
yeah Mike, thats why I posted it too.
It was my lame attempt to "bump" your post. I was hoping others would chime in
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 02:26 AM
55/14/4.1 by street--> 5/4/2 (like 60 hands or so)
How crazy does villain have to be to make the river a call?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $30.25
BTN: $84.45
SB: $173.00
Hero (BB): $98.50
UTG: $100.00

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with J 3
2 folds, BTN calls $1, SB calls $0.50, Hero checks

Flop: ($3.00) 3 J 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.50, BTN folds, SB calls $2.50

Turn: ($8.00) 5 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $6, SB calls $6

River: ($20.00) Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $16, SB raises to $73, Hero...
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 02:33 AM
Not many hands with villain,
Raise over those weak bets on the turn or river? I'm talking like a smallish value raise on the river -- or is that too "greedy"?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $46.00
BB: $104.55
UTG: $105.50
CO: $161.15
Hero (BTN): $101.80

Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with A J
2 folds, Hero raises to $4, SB calls $3.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($9.00) 8 9 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($9.00) J (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero calls $2

River: ($13.00) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $2, Hero raises to $8
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Suited connectors and a handful of suited 2-gappers are fine to play UTG and it's enough (provided you're opening progressively wider as you move toward the button) to get your VPIP and PFR higher.
I just noticed I made a mistake in what I intended to write in my post a few posts up. I meant to say a handful of suited 1-gappers.

(Also of course you're usually playing suited 2-gap broadways UTG as well, but they also have some high pair value so I don't strictly look at them as a suited 2-gapper.)

Last edited by Jbrochu; 03-05-2008 at 10:56 AM.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GtrHtr
I think betting the flop is fine, but I'd bet more.
I'm curious what your reasoning is?

Quote:
His flop call is interesting, he'd call with a lot of pairs he'd call pf and all A's hoping to extract. I don't thinkd you're equity here is all that great as I'd put him on the flop at AJs+, and JJ+ so you beat JJ, and draw with QQ and you're behind the rest. I understand that your read is that you probably got under his skin, but imo I would c/f and IF your read is correct, he will often check behind on and after the turn.
After his flop call I had him on something like 88+ and AJs+ or thereabouts but discounting AA,KK, and discounting to a lesser extent AK and any ace actually. (Maybe that's dangerous thinking since I had so few hands with him, but it seems the normal TAGish player at nl100 usually 4-bet shoves preflop with KK+ and sometimes AK, and would usually shove over my flop bet with any ace.)

I actually never considered check/folding. I was trying to figure out whether to check/get it in, or open shove on the turn.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Venetian
Hey, I guess it's been a couple of days but I wanted to follow up on this since several solid players didn't like it. Obviously, I haven't been playing cash long, only about 78K hands or so, but I was looking for spots to open up my game beyond 16/13 into something more 25/22ish, and opening SC's and PP's in all positions seemed like the way to go. 85s is definitely at the lower end though.
.
are you trying to play 25/22 at 6 handed or full ring?
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrochu
I'm curious what your reasoning is?



After his flop call I had him on something like 88+ and AJs+ or thereabouts but discounting AA,KK, and discounting to a lesser extent AK and any ace actually. (Maybe that's dangerous thinking since I had so few hands with him, but it seems the normal TAGish player at nl100 usually 4-bet shoves preflop with KK+ and sometimes AK, and would usually shove over my flop bet with any ace.)

I actually never considered check/folding. I was trying to figure out whether to check/get it in, or open shove on the turn.
I don't mind leading the flop because of several reasons. You have impetus, worse hands and maybe better hands like KK are folding and you will often win the pot vs 100nl regulars who call the pf 3bet light w/ position.

After he calls I think the dynamic changes as I stated. His range is pretty narrow unless he is making a move which is rare. Also fwiw, I mix up my pf play some with AK, AA and to a lesser extent KK. For example, I'm less likely to 3 bet with AK out of the blinds if the original opener is utg or has 12/3 type stats. I'll also mix in calling 3 bets from the blinds w/ AA from LP.

I don't think checking the flop is bad either.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 12:48 PM
Yeah, depending on the current table dynamics I'm calling 3-bets with KK/AA often as well but I thought this player would play a lot more straightforward.

What about your bet size comment on the flop? I'm curious why you would bet more there.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GtrHtr
Just sat, first hand vs villain and I have him at 43/13/inf over 23 hands.

Poker Stars $0.50/$1.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $83.80
UTG: $105.10
Hero (MP): $98.50
CO: $91.90
BTN: $115.60
SB: $82.90

Pre Flop: Hero is MP with K Q
1 fold, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, BTN calls $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2

Flop: ($9.50) 8 5 Q (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $7, BTN raises to $16, BB folds, Hero calls $9

Turn: ($41.50) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $23, Hero folds

I think with the limited info you had you played this fine.

I could also see calling the turn and trying to check down the river. There are not too many players at nl100 capable of triple barreling air so I think you can safely fold to a river shove even with good pot odds.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Venetian
Hey, I guess it's been a couple of days but I wanted to follow up on this since several solid players didn't like it. Obviously, I haven't been playing cash long, only about 78K hands or so, but I was looking for spots to open up my game beyond 16/13 into something more 25/22ish, and opening SC's and PP's in all positions seemed like the way to go. 85s is definitely at the lower end though.

Like I said, though, this post set me off on a PT quest to see how I was doing UTG and SC's didn't really seem to be causing me that much trouble. AQ/AJ and mid pocket pairs, which are pretty standard open hands there though were definitely getting me in bad spots. At worst, the SC's appeared neutral EV, which I'm thinking is fine since it can help disguise bigger hands and force people to consider wider ranges if/when I get aggressive postflop. Sample size is still small, but I'm +5 PTBB UTG 6-handed running 20/20. I don't know how that compares with solid winning players, but just perusing the other regs I play with a lot that are 18/15 types overall or tighter, they don't seem to be doing any better as a group UTG.

Anyway, I'm rambling, but postflop play seems to be a bigger problem for me right now. Each day, when I review my hands from the night before, it's the times I didn't stop bluffing (this, especially) or when I call the donk's turn min-raise and river bet w/ TPTK that seem to chip away at my winnings. I guess you could say playing more hands preflop gives me more opportunities to do something stupid postflop and right now, I couldn't necessarily disagree. It's really bad when when I look at the hands I lost the most Sklansky bucks from the night before and my final hand is High Card 50% of the time.

Either way, always appreciate feedback, especially the negative, even if I don't immediately respond.
If you want to open up do it a little from MP, and the rest should be from the CO or BT. Raising more hands preflop means playing more hands post-flop (obv) so you should be in position as often as you possibly can. FWIW i fold 98s UTG and open J4s OTB. position>>>>>>>>cards
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-05-2008 , 10:50 PM
Button and I have played a ton of hands recently. He's been 3 betting me relentlessly when I've been raising in the CO. I flopped bottom set in the sb vs him on a king high dry board and he didn't cbet and I check/called turn and river and he showed middle pair(I felt like a donkey after this hand but his cbet % was something like 90%). He's something like 20/18 with 9 3 bet.

SB is pretty nitty but capable of squeezing here. The board is really scary so I can't imagine he's checking any overpairs that beat JJ.

Button took awhile to shove after my flop bet. Is his range wide enough for me to call his shove?

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $300.05
MP: $52.80
CO: $226.05
BTN: $248.95
SB: $202.80
BB: $188.55

Pre-Flop: J J dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, BTN calls $7, SB raises to $30, BB folds, Hero calls $23, BTN calls $23

Flop: ($92) 6 4 5 (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $60, BTN raises to $218.95 and is All-In, SB folds, Hero ?
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-06-2008 , 07:27 AM
Any opinions on leggopoker?
I've only heard good things so far.
Currently I play NL50SH and I'm playing NL100SH pretty soon if things roll on like this.
Half year for 230 bucks = good investion?
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-06-2008 , 07:54 AM
all of the lego pros that I have played against/met/talked too are sick good. mynameisgreg and aejones are both very hard to play against, and bobbofitos taught me a ton over last summer. clayton is also v. good, and i think they added vids by straate (prob one of the tougher players at 5/10-10/20 on stars) and apathy so I'd say it will pay for itself in a day or two
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-06-2008 , 08:07 AM
Thank you doc
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-06-2008 , 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sence25
Any opinions on leggopoker?
I've only heard good things so far.
Currently I play NL50SH and I'm playing NL100SH pretty soon if things roll on like this.
Half year for 230 bucks = good investion?
Leggo is very good. In addition to FD's comments which are all true I think their small stakes vids are good as well.

Craig's, Isura's, and Carrot's vids will also help you a ton.

Apathy's first vid is great and Bobbo's latest is the best vid I've seen yet.
STTF SNG -> Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-06-2008 , 10:30 AM
Thank you guys, they're gonna have a new suscriber by today.

Two hands from my first session at FT(since I'm at my parents place I can only play with my iBook, and FT is kinda the only site that has a good client for macs - not that anyone cares about that):

Villain is dutch, so probably starting a play at me here - I got no stats, since it's both the third hand and a Mac without the chance of getting PT/PA to run.
I think this is not that bad since I'm gonna learn to play just by reads a lot more. What you guys think about this?
Anyway, here go the hands:

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: $117.55
SB: $9.35
BB: $56.05
Hero (CO): $49.25

Pre Flop: Hero is CO with Q Q
Hero raises to $2, BTN calls $2, 2 folds

Flop: ($4.75) 2 9 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, BTN calls $4

Turn: ($12.75) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $9, BTN raises to $18, Hero raises to $43.25 all in, BTN folds

Thoughts?

Second hand, villain is a typical limp donk, so probably calling down with a pair.
C/C river(to induce oesdbluff) < blockbet if that's the case?

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $59.30
Hero (BB): $50.50
UTG: $92.25
MP: $49.25
CO: $66.20
BTN: $45.75

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with A A
3 folds, BTN calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.50, BTN calls $2

Flop: ($5.25) 6 9 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $4.50, BTN calls $4.50

Turn: ($14.25) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $11, BTN calls $11

River: ($36.25) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Again, thoughts?
Thanks a lot, sence
STTF SNG -&gt; Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-06-2008 , 10:34 AM
1st one looks good, 2nd one could go either way depending on your reasoning for checking the river, so if you tell me why u checked ill tell u what i think
STTF SNG -&gt; Cash Thread #2 Quote
03-06-2008 , 12:10 PM
I thought he has an 8 fairly often here the way he played the hand and is probably bluffing.
I couldn't see many worse hands calling a huge bet.
STTF SNG -&gt; Cash Thread #2 Quote

      
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