Do we want draws to fold?

Nope, at least, not when the pot is $9. But if we are analysing whether we can get it in, as opposed to playing as passively as I did, we do have to count money we win when taking down a pot Villain had some serious equity in.

And this was one of the things I was thinking about in this hand, can I get it in at all or do I just get called by a ****load of T's (T9+), while villain folds everything I beat. People think I can, which is good to know since being unsure made me play the hand as I did, without a much of a plan.

Hey, I'm very glad to see this and congratulations! A far cry from me sucking out with J4o in a 3 bet pot... check ur database

Cliffs - it's hard to tell when it's best to stack off and not? Maybe it's just me, but it seems that we can usually stack off lighter at 6max than nitring?

mostly true, but if this is the only read i have...

...then i'm still getting it in at fr too.

related note: people post hands all the time without giving much of a read. i've found that when i question a play i've made i examine everything i know about the villain and come up with a read that usually makes my decision clear to me. unfortunately, we don't always have time to do this in game so we end up playing very passively or making other bad decisions. a good exercise is to play one table and pay close attention to the action when you are not in the hand. try to take good notes and you will start to develop better reads on players much faster.

GTR, thanx. i'm too lazy to look up that hand but if you want to post it so we can all witness your shame then it's ok by me

definitely, poker is hard. Luckily I got some help

I never played much nitring, but yeah this should be true... you have to be tighter is some spot in full ring simply because you have more players left to act... this attracts players who naturally have a tighter style, so ranges will be tighter in all spots.

ul Forum can be good someimes but generally they are bigger nits then some STTFrs

Do you usually have more of a read than "Villain is 40/24/4, really aggro and loose and doesn't fold flops that much" type of stuff after playing like 100 hands with someone? It usually doesn't get much better than this for me (after 100 hands). So no, I dont exactly know if he'll fold a Q and how he plays his draws in such a situation, I mean I've seen him stick around on more than his fair share of flops and If seen him be aggressive with non premium hands, but obviously such an exact situation hasn't come up and I don't have enough of a read to extrapolate confidently from previous situations. But yeah, playing 4 tables instead of just one definitely has something to do with that, but most of the time, I just lack the attention span to play 1 table only and really work on my game. Definitely a leak.

BTW I dont think this is entirely a question of read, definitely partly, but even given his actual ranges, figuring out the best line would not be entirely trivial to me since I'm so much in the middle of his range (way ahead of the Q's, way behind the T's and slightly a head the 5231 draws) and we have quite some room to play

I'm starting to post there and I've been reading a bit already, but the main problem seems to be that the quality of the posts is really mixed. Its pretty high traffic, some people post good advice in really bad style, some people post bad advice in bad style, some people post good advice in good style... etc... while in this thread there are just a few people and everyone seems to know their stuff and can express their opinion/argument well. Here (unlike at uNL), its just really easy to check whether advice/an argument makes sense (and it usually does)

it's just a common theme that came to mind which, tbh probably has more to do with my own personal experience than the hand you posted.

Ah k, but you right and it definitely also has a bit to do with the hand. I was just wondering how much of a read other players can accumulate quickly while multitabling.

It's a fine line when accumulating reads. If you are only playing a couple of tables, you can figure out someone's general tendencies faster. But, you may also wrongly assume that because FISH A played a hand against TAG A a certain way, that FISH A will play the hand the same against you. Which may not be the case.

Multitabling you miss out a bit on who might be tilting, rushing, etc. But, largely it's your history with the villain combined with his general tendencies that is the most important. You largely don't lose that playing many tables.

for those that play on ftp, is this read correct: if they have an iron man symbol, they are terrible?

Really depends. It basically means they put in a lot of volume but doesn't mean they are any good, and I'd say they are generally more robotic than most.

I was kinda joking. I've only played a few of them. And at least two of them took a weird line vs me.

MP opens, I 3bet btn with AA, Iron man cold calls the BB, MP folds.

Flop is 873r.
He donks smallish....I tank trying to decide if I should raise so a scared card for TT/JJ can't come, of if he's just donking to see where he's and and will fold...I decided to call.

Turn Q.

he c/c my half potish bet (leaves like <40% pot for river).

river 6.
He shoves....I snap, he has TT for a whole lot of random btn clicking.

Please be telling me what part of the lake you are fishing in?

That's pretty standard for a ****** reg. They always think you are bluffing and will either call you down with junk or 4/5 bet non stop with JTs and A8s. It's the whole ****** line of thinking that they need a 45 degree red line to be a winning player.

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 4 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $10.00
Hero (BB): $17.69
CO: $30.33
BTN: $14.46

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with J J
1 fold, BTN raises to $0.35, SB calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.50, BTN raises to $4, 2 folds

BTN was someting like 20/15 with 30ish steal% over 120 hands or so. we have no 3bet history, but he flatted my UTG/EP raises 3 or 4 times and noone did win any significant amount off each other nor did we get to showdown.
SB is new to the table and i have 8 hands on him. he was decently active, but hard to tell if he had good cards or is just aggro.

I have a loose image and been running around 30/25 and did 3bet otb and out of the blinds vs. players who already left the table. out of 100 hands maybe 8 times.

-----

I thought button would def call with worse pre, but on the other hand i have relative position post if i just flat, but will have a hard time with the big stack-to-pot ratio vs. BTN when he fires multiple barrels on low boards.

I dunno...It's a tough spot cause you are a little deeper. I guess I'd just fold. But, I'd have already known what I was going to do if I was 3betting him. I'd probably just call in the first place...cause even if he calls a lot preflop, being a little deeper you can find your self in a lot of tricky spots.

noob question: I grind $16s-$38s turbos, if I were to play cash games (6max, can't stand nitring), where should I start at? I have some relatively successful experience in NL25 from the past (small sample).

Probably NL10-25 imo, then move to NL50 pretty quickly if you're doing fine.

Also - I wouldn't necessarily try to equate SNG skill or BI level to 6 max cash. I'd be more inclined to use ~ 30 BIs divided by your overall bankroll as a starting point, but obviously the games are totally different, so it's more BR and skill dependent than just saying "I play X BI in SNGs, so I should play X BI at cash."

When I first got cash coaching, my coach told me to play 25nl until I made 20BI regardless of how long it took just to get a feel. I would do that, just to get a handle. It really shouldn't take very long if you've never undergone a frontal lobotomy.

Full Tilt Poker $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $0.43
Hero (BB): $2.24
UTG: $0.76
UTG+1: $2.48
UTG+2: $2.16
MP1: $2.84
MP2: $2.15
CO: $2.71
BTN: $0.99

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with 5 8
4 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 2 folds, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.06) 7 T 9 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.04, MP2 calls $0.04, SB folds

Turn: ($0.14) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.06, MP2 calls $0.06

River: ($0.26) J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.16

Trying to build up my roll and get back into cash basics, so doing some Peru and hitting the 2 cent tables.

Villain was 50/0 over about 30 hands and I've gotten into a few pots with him where he'll call/fold. Not really sure what he could have by the river, but I'm not folding, how's my bet sizing though?

I usually don't stab at these type flops. Way too many hands can call you. On the turn, I don't get the bet sizing. Surely you aren't trying to price your self into a reverse implied odds draw? It's not like you are worried about getting blown off your draw. It's any easy fold if he raises. I'd either bet big as a bluff, or c/f.

River is fine.

Jurasstoil

At 10nl if you get a small 4 bet, ie not a shove, you are dead: it's 80% AA/KK/QQ, 15% AK. Yes there are a few players who do it with a wider range, but normally AK/QQ just shove, so without a good read it's a fold.

In effect, the % of the time when you are up against AK or worse and therefore ahead is not sufficient for this to be anything other than a fold. If you call with JJ what do you do on the flop. Fold if it's AKQ high, and stack off on anything else? Meh.

Welcome movieman, I'm spending December on FT too, so maybe we've played - PM me your SN if you like. I agree with Bones, that this flop is a very bad one to donk bet. It's far too coordinated and likely to have hit someone, so you will get called or raised enough to make it unprofitable. As it is, check fold turn, and if it goes check check, check fold river.

Agree with Devin that your turn bet means you probably have to bet river too, but at 1c/2c, your only chance of taking this down is to bet bigger because no-one is thinking about whether your bet size is a value bet. They're thinking, hmm he didn't bet much I can afford to call that ...

And re turn bet size, I think it's a mistake to bet small if you hit the flush, so for me it would also be a mistake to bet small to represent it.

Edit: I posted in the STT BBV thread about the swong I'm having while chasing my bonus at FT.

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.25(BB) Replayer
SB ($31.65)
BB ($38.15)
UTG ($34.65)
Hero ($25)
CO ($11.50)
BTN ($30.35)

Dealt to Hero 8 7

fold, Hero raises to $1, fold, fold, SB calls $0.90, fold

FLOP ($2.25) T 2 2

SB checks, Hero bets $1.25, SB calls $1.25

TURN ($4.75) T 2 2 A

SB checks, Hero bets $3.25, SB calls $3.25

RIVER ($11.25) T 2 2 A 5

SB checks


Villain is 24/19/1.5 and 3bet 9% (over a sample too small to mean much for 3-betting - although taken with his vpip/pfr it might be fairly accurate.)

I don't think we had any real history prior to this hand.

Should I be firing another barrel on this river to try and move him off weak T's and medium and small pairs? I don't believe he has too many aces in his range except AJ and maybe AT, AQ.