this tourney had a significant added bonus to the prize pool
17 buy ins for $100 each + additional $2700 to winner from a monthly promo designed for a 40 player tourney, but only 17 eligible showed up.
7k starting chips 30 min rounds
25/50 Level 1 !! (6th hand of the tourney, already one person out)
AJ bb and TT late pos. both limp with 5 way action
flop AAT
AJ bets 1200
3 players fold
TT push 6k All In (w/ tens full)
AJ calls nearly all in (500 chips remaining)
(TT is 77% to win)
turn 7
river J

In a normal tourney I'm happy with the TT action
BUT, because there were only 17 players, and I was sure this bonus money would be chopped at least 6 ways, i'm questioning whether I could have handled it differently due to the large bonus cash.

any suggestions?

thanks
josh

I don't like the limp with the 10s, especially in late position. What were you thinking? If you had raised with 10s, you may have gotten the AJ to fold, especially if it was not suited. AJ is a mediocre starting hand. You left yourself wide open to a ton of hands that could beat your 10s on the flop. If you were the AJ and someone limped in late position, I would have raised on the BB as well with that hand. Regardless, you flopped a boat. The only hand that could have beaten you at that point was A10. You put your chips in with the best hand and got an unlucky river. In saying that, the player with AJ flopped trips and the only hands that could beat him were, once again, A10, 10s, or AQ/AK. Because of the betting, that player also made the right play. If you had made a sizable pre-flop raise here, he may have put you on a better ace and laid the hand down, especially if you kept firing,

Now, your whole hand history is horrible. You are better off posting an actual hand history so we can see the suits of the cards, the chip stacks, etc. and get a better feel of the game.

thanks for the reply, and sorry for the sub-par hand history (it was a rainbow flop)
to answer your question, i limped tens cause the tourney had just started and i like to watch the players for a while before i start putting in more chips than necessary. Then I can have some reasoning for how to process preflop re-raises etc...
i limped (50 chips) with tens knowing that i was going to fold anything but a huge flop, as i was still in watch mode on level 1... also i felt the bb was highly likely to allow my limp unless he had higher pockets, which turned true as he limped with AJ. I feel only a 7x raise would push off the AJ at this particular level.

i understand the AJ call was somewhat reasonable, and wasnt complaining about it, cause my hand was concealed as you pointed out, i prefer concealed hands to announced ones, and i like knowing what they have when they dont know what i have, but obviously there are consequences to that.
i was positive i held a substantial advantage in the hand also figured at least 50/50 he would call (yes i knew my hand was concealed and that would create more chance for a call)... i chose to push anyway and take a nice shot at a 2x, none of that puzzles me.

my question was mainly about how the added prize pool and small amount of players would affect how agressive you play a 77/23 situation such as this flopped situation?

thanks again
josh

You're acting like you had 33. TT is not a marginal hand, especially first in in late position against random hands. You can't give the BB a free chance to outflop you here as most flops are going to contain at least one overcard. Put in the raise and make him pay to try and draw out. Besides that he probably won't be putting in any more money if he completely whiffs on the flop so get it in now. Also don't limp first in in late position, raise or fold, and not raising tens for fear of a three bet is pretty weak.

How did you come up with this number? You didn't provide reads so I'm assuming you don't know the BB so I'm confused how you know this so accurately.

There is nothing "somewhat reasonable" about his call. Anyone who folds AJ on that flop is beyond nitty. Trying to insinuate that the BB is a dumb fish who should have looked into your soul, seen your tens and folded trips is silly.

??? The overlay doesn't mean you fold monsters. Tournaments are not about survival, you will have to gamble to win and this barely qualifies as a gamble. You cannot fold your way to first and unless you are far and away the best player it is incorrect to pass even a small edge let alone one this big. Unless one of you are extremely bad there is no way this hand ends any other way than both of you all in. Either player folding here is a huge mistake, this is a cooler, they happen, don't dwell on it. Second guessing getting all your money in here is a waste of time.

this was a live game by the way. so i dont have exact chip counts and such...
thizzin:
tens ARE a marginal hand in multi-way pots.
example: 5 way action
TT , AJ , 65 , QJ , KT
TT is a HUGE underdog, some other combinations arent so bad.
so if you are going to raise to narrow the field, you better KNOW that at least 2 people will fold, and nobody will re-raise, thats a lot to know so very early in the tourney, and if you dont know then you have no business raising there.
and don't compute odds against random hands, cause people dont call with random hands.
yes raising late could narrow the field, or it could get me in big trouble, so its a choice we all have to make. it has nothing to do with the thread question, and yes i did know the bb was a tight player and i knew my limp was gonna see flop.

anyway, this is mostly off subject so i guess its time to stop, thanks for the input though
josh

And how does limping in prevent a multiway pot exactly? I suppose the BB could always open fold to your threatening limp but I wouldn't count on it.

This is a completely terrible idea for reasons I already posted plus if you only raise with hands which can stand a three bet your play will be transparent and it will be much easier to play against you. Not to mention it's impossible to know before every raise if everyone behind you will fold or if you will be three bet so I don't even know why you'd bring that up here.

I will compute odds against random hands because when it gets to you preflop that is exactly what they have. If you get called then you'll have to play poker, TT is still ahead of a normal players calling range plus you have position.

You will take down the blinds or get called by an inferior hand far more often than you are three bet, especially if the BB is a tight, predictable player. Giving him a free shot at outflopping you when you have the best hand preflop is a bad idea.

The thread question was pointless as you, apparently seriously, asked about folding a flopped full house. If you *knew* he would check if you limped then why are you so afraid of a three bet? If he's not strong enough to raise an open limp then why do you believe he's going to three bet your raise? It sounds to me like you're trying to come up with ways to justify weak preflop play and write it off as "avoiding gambles" or something equally ludicrous.

The only thing you should have done differently besides raising preflop is making a fist pump when the guy turned up AJ!

thanks Larude , hehe
anyway, this is 'forum poker' as i wondered might happen, people ranting off slogans they have heard to make themselves feel all high and mighty.

the slogans rattled off here like..
"small edges" and "the best of it" and always raise with tens late....
are mostly cash game strategy, and only partially apply to tournement
cash game you never knowingly fold the better hand, no matter the edge or pot size...
tourney there are plenty of times that you should
blanket raising with tens is marginal play, dont ever do anything in a tourney just because that is what you are supposed to do, take the action that fits your judgement of the situation, since im the only one here who knew whole preflop situation and people at the table, you shouldnt presume to make glaring comments about the preflop strategy.

and the AJ is not an auto-call 100% of the time. from the betting only perspective it may be, but this is live play where nearly everyone has played with each other. Cleraly you play internet poker more than live. If i look at the person, and i know them, and i see they have me destroyed, and they have never gone all in on the first round without a huge hand, i will happily fold the 12% of my stack that i bet with trip aces.
the player with AJ was very unhappy while making his call, and i think he just surrendered to the poker gods, this happens sometimes, i wasnt mad at him for the outcome, he had 23%, and it hits exactly that often, nothing for me to complain about.

the purpose of my post was to contemplate other options than my all in raise. 'folding' is not the only other option, and i wouldnt fold it unless i was o the bubble and guaranteed a large amount of money by just auto-folding everything.
the statement that both hands should always be all-in in this situation is very marginal and smells of internet poker.

now that ive reflected on it more, the main question i needed to ask was, does the AJ player tend to fold more often on missed turns, and how easily will i be able to read his turn. my edge was big enough that a push was well warranted, and id do it again, but with my position, i had to option to flat call, if i felt he was a weak turn player, allowing him to draw, and then use my position and read to judge his reaction to the very likely blank turn. the benefit of this would be that i put myself in a more guaranteed win situation, and less risk of elimination, after all, survival is all that matter, im sure you've read that. you chose the path to survival, even if it entails allowing someone to draw. if i thought he was a weak turn player, and he looked unsatisfied with the turn, it may have been an opportunity to create a more guaranteed fold, or even better get to a sitation where i can get his chips while he is drawing dead, the most ideal situation, and admittidly rare, but this is one example of getting there, a ten, or two blanks puts me into a situation where i know he is dead and he still might give me all his chips. if i was knowingly only 65/35 on the flop i never would have pushed there with such a large overlay of cash in the prize pool, i would have played it out for a smaller pot.
with the large cash bonus, it makes more sense to be carefull about all in plays. only do it with a bigger edge, i had a big edge, but still risky. i have to look at the odds, and determine whether the plastic chips i win are going to help my cause enough to risk the 23% chance of elimination.
"get all your chips in when you have the best of it" hardly tells the whole story and is mostly for cash games.

.