Hello everyone,

It has been a long time since I have been on 2+2, probably 12-14 years. So long that I forgot my other username. Anyways, I live in Atlanta and playing online poker in Georgia is not an option unless I want to do Bovado (i think American Card Room is an option but I don't remember). Anyhow, I play locally in a league called "Interstate Poker Club" - https://www.interstatepokerclub.com/home.php. It is Freeroll, fun, bar poker. The play tends to be loose, not a lot of 3-betting (4-betting is non-existent), lots of calling stations unless the bet is quite large. Again it is free, bar poker.

Well, this is the first hand of the night. All tables sit 8 people. The stacks all start at 30k. The blinds start 25/50. I am UTG.

Pre-flop:
UTG (me): AsKd raise to 200.
UTG+1: folds
UTG+2: folds
HJ: QhQc re-raises to 800. This guy I have played with before and he tends to play a bit tight. When he raises, it is either all face cards or 10's or up.
CO: 6h6c calls the 800. Never seen this guy before. New.
Button: Calls. Guy is extremely loose.
SB: Calls
BB: Folds
Back to me: I call.

Pot is ~3k

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Flop: Ah 6h 3h

UTG (me): I bet 1.5k (My thinking is make people pay to fish - I regret this later....)
HJ: Calls
CO: Calls
Button: Folds
SB: Folds

Pot is ~8k

--------------------------

Turn: Ac

UTG (Me): I bet 2k (My thinking is ok I have trips - board pairs the full house can nullify a flush if anyone played KQh, QJh, JTh but i'm not buying that anyone has that.... i regret this later....)
HJ: Calls
CO: Calls

Pot is ~14k


--------------------------

River: 6s

UTG (Me): I bet 10k
HJ: Folds
CO: Re-raise all-in for an additional 15k, making it 25k
UTG (Me): I call thinking the only thing that beats me now is quads. I lucked out and the board paired.
As posted above, the CO has 66 for quads. The HJ had QQ on of them hearts.

I am bust in the first hand. Played all of 5 minutes tops.

Now, i'm replaying back in my mind. On the flop, I should've checked to the pre-flop re-raiser. Called any bet on the flop. Turn would've gave me trips, I should've check/call because the flush is still out there (play small ball). The river filled me up, if the turn went checks all around and I could've have bet realizing that if anyone raises I just call.

I hesitated with this approach because the tourney before (Monday), I took this approach and I was just bleeding and bleeding chips. Ultimately, I went bust with AK pre-flop to AA. So, tonight (Wednesday) I'm thinking be the aggressor and do not people limp in with garbage and hit two pair or the oddball straights.

My poker theory and stats are rust as hell. It has been a long time since I read poker books, i.e. Dan Harrington's, Gus Hansen's, Kill Everyone, so I'm sure I'm defying things illustrated in those books.

Any random thoughts from anyone? Feel free to tell me, this play was garbage or ehhh this is not positive EV. Whatever you think.

Seems like a straightforward cooler. You're supposed to lose all the money.

I would consider 4-betting preflop depending on your feeling of whether HJ will 5-bet you here. AKo you would rather play heads-up and with a shallow SPR going to the flop so you can comfortably stack off with TPTK. (You said you were thinking about being more of the aggressor; this is a good spot to get aggressive, and if HJ is tight like you describe, there's a good chance he's only 5-betting KK/AA, which means you can safely fold to a 5-bet. And maybe you fold out the bottom of his range and everyone else in the hand and take it down, which is still a nice result.)

I usually don't do the flop lead here but I guess I don't hate it, given the chance the board checks through. It does create the concern of inflating the pot OOP and not having a lot of clarity what you're up against.

I think the turn bet should be larger since you're multiway and vulnerable to any heart. 1/4 pot is giving any one villain 5:1 odds to call which is better than they need to draw to a flush with one card to come. Once the button folds flop I'm not as worried about anyone having a made flush, since based on your player descriptions he's the one most likely to show up with random suited cards. (Unless HJ is 3-betting hands like suited broadways in addition to AK and big pairs, in which case you should definitely 4-bet preflop).

The river is just a cooler; you literally only lose to 6h6c exactly and that's what he happened to have.

Taking the broader view of some of your questions:

For modern books, I like Dara O'Kearney's books as a starter set (the most important to modernizing your game as quickly as possible being GTO Poker Simplified and Endgame Poker Strategy, IMO), Michael Acevedo's Modern Poker Theory for something a little more advanced, and Andrew Brokos' Play Optimal Poker series when you're really ready to get into the weeds.

And you can probably play on Americas Cardroom as well as Bovada/Ignition. Global is pretty good too but I don't remember if they have restrictions in Georgia (but I don't think Georgia has restrictions on any of these sites). ACR has the biggest tournaments but in my experience is also the toughest of the sites.

Such is life. Thanks for reading my post.

Nath this is a well thought out post with some great feedback. Thank you for this. You’ve given me plenty to think about (plus the books).

I really like your pre-flop assessment - 100% spot on. I sometimes get into my own head that i won’t get paid off on a good hand if I scare people off. Acting like I already have the nuts before the flop (….facepalm). I understand the value of thinning out ranges pre-flop.

In these type of loose games, do you ever think check/call on flop and turn is ok? My thinking is whatever im betting - only trips with poker pair, Ace with something, flush, and flush draw is calling. Doesn’t seem too great.

Well, on the one hand: In loose games, I would be more worried about a flopped flush because it's more likely people are going to play too many suited hands. So I might caution some pot control, especially multiway and on the flop and OOP. But the flop action should give you some indicator of whether that's in play (I imagine any flush that isn't the nuts is betting or raising a bet, and the nuts might too).

On the other hand: A common incorrect adjustment in loose games is to play tighter and only build pots when you're sure you have it, when a lot of the time the correct adjustment is to value bet thinner. In a loose game you're going to get called by more hands you beat and hands that don't have the correct odds to draw. I'm not sure which Ax hands are in CO or BT's cold calling range here but I doubt any of them fold the flop and even more so the turn. (This adjustment is also why it's better to 4-bet AK preflop against loose players-- not only to get folds, but because the correct adjustment is to get more money in while ahead, not wait until it's safe to get money in. More on 4-betting below.)

More specific to this and whether to bet or check, one thing I've been thinking about lately (that I need to put into practice more, TBH) is the idea that we can't really control the pot size from OOP, and in spots like this where we're not sure of our hand strength, it's often better to put out a small value/blocker bet than to check/call. A small bet prevents us from facing a bigger one when we are uncertain, we get calls from hands we beat that would have checked behind, and if we were going to check/call a bet from all the hands that beat us, then we don't lose anything when villain has those hands (in fact we may save a little if we bet smaller than villain would have).

So, in this instance, if those are the only hands that are calling you, then I'd say the only hands that bet the flop are probably sets and flushes and maybe if they also have AK (I imagine more aces would bet the turn if it checked to them). So the question is, would you rather put in money against the sets and flushes, or against the sets and flushes and also the flush draws and weaker aces?

Well, the surest way to build a pot with a good hand is to bet it. But here you have AKo, which is not a good enough hand yet to be worried about that, and again, one where it most wins with TPTK, which is more likely to win against fewer opponents and more profitable the lower the stack-to-pot ratio going to the flop.

If you 4-bet to, say, 3000 (or maybe even bigger against three opponents, but I think that's close to correct at least) and take it down, then hey, you just added almost 50BB to your stack without showdown, and that's a win. And while I imagine HJ calls here, you can probably get one or even two bets in postflop since HJ has the Qh.

Of course it doesn't always work out that way, but in this particular situation I'd be thinking of a 4-bet as a kind of squeeze. HJ will continue with very strong hands, sure, but HJ's bottom of range has to worry about CO/BT if they don't know what their cold-calling ranges are (on top of our 4-bet), so HJ is continuing with a pretty narrow range of holdings, which is easier for us to play against. In addition, knowing at least that CO is loose, it's likely the 4-bet gets at least him out of the pot, if not BT as well, giving us a better chance to win it.

Thank you so much Nath for this. This has softened the blow of my poor play in what I hoped would've been a 3-4 hours of fun poker. I already believe I'm much more equipped next time I play with these assessments. Again, thank you!

Pre flop I would take out 800 as if I was calling and then add 4,000 chips to it. If I had AKs I would consider calling on the first hand because it plays better against 3 opponents than AKo.
But here I 4-bet virtually all of the time. If QQ reraises/jams then it is likely HJ and BTN will fold. If HJ calls then we might be 3 or 4 way but there is a decent chance we would be HU.

As played on the flop I always check. It is important to see if this is going to be bet and raised (which is unlikely given what actually happened) at which point I would likely fold. But unfortunately HJ would check and CO would likely bet so I would call. Also we are in relative position because we are last to act after HJ cbets (which I doubt would happen in actuality).

The other thing to note is that when you were all in with AK vs AA you are going to remember that a lot because of the pain. I was eliminated with AQs (hearts) vs AA late in a tourney about 10 years ago. It stings. But it will happen less frequently than say AQ vs KK or AK vs AQ or AK vs QQ. So that is why I would 4-bet pre-flop here.

The irony of course is that your chances of hitting a boat are less than 2% after this flop. And for a guy to then have quads is crazy. In the last 15 years of tournaments I have played I had Quads once vs a runner runner boat and the guy had QJ on a 66QJQ runout when I had 66. And then the time where I had AJ and the board went 22AAJ and the guy with 22 who had raised preflop checked back the flop and turn. Its always going to be all in when we get that far.

This hand is going to stay with you but for the wrong reasons. Yes I have been eliminated by AA when I 4-bet all in with AK. More than once. But I have also won 4-bet all ins with AK vs AQ. If it means getting rid of one or two other players pre-flop then I do it. In the WSOP senior event I failed to 4-bet with KK when the SB 3-bet after the BTN called and the BTN had 66 of course and the flop had a 6. It wasn't even worth posting the hand because my play was so dumb.

Nath, excellent post overall. I do think that the above quoted advice is perfect for the game as desribed. Against tough opponents, however, your weak lead is often goinna get pounced on with a raise by all the hands that beat you, plus a bunch of hands that don't (but usually have outs) -- this is really going to put you to the test; especially against Vs who are willing to keep barrelling.

A couple more things that jump out at me about this hand after having time to think about it:

1) 4 betting is a really good idea not just for the reasons nath listed, but because you said nobody 4 bets in this game. That means you put massive pressure even on hands as strong as QQ, which may fold to a couple bets even if you miss the flop. If people are terrified of 4 bets, 4 bet light--way lighter than AK.

2) I don't think you can ever get away on the river anyway, but it makes it that much harder to put him on 66 that he didn't raise the flop. I always raise the flop with a set on a monotone board and try to get the money in. If I'm against a flush so be it. We still have 33% and people will show up with worse sets, two pair, and pair + flush draw combinations all the time. So you can't put him on 66 here.

Yeah, I think the concepts of block betting and of the idea that you're better off value betting marginal hands small yourself OOP than checking and letting worse hands check back and better hands value bet you are generally important. But generally speaking they're also more applicable to heads-up play than a spot like this if your opponents are capable. Weak leading into multiple players or on early streets vs. tough opponents is definitely setting yourself up to be put in some impossible spots.

Mr Rick this is a great amount of detail. Thank you for taking the time to outline it!

LifeNit, I appreciate you mulling over this hand for me.

I think next time I play I need to think about 4-betting in this game.

Love the nath posts. To answer your title question, you are screwing up by trying to retroactively engineer a hand once you knew what the runout AND your opponents' cards were.

One of my buddies told me he correctly folded KK preflop in a $30 home tourney when he had 30 blinds. I said "oh wow he had aces (of course not that it makes it a correct fold in that spot)" and he said no he had AQ, but an A came.

You have to evaluate your decisions on the data that exists at the time of the decision, not things that become known after. GL.

I couldn't agree more. It happens quite a bit at these freeroll, bar tournaments. You see a few people groaning and whispering, which is a tell in itself, about the hands they could've made (some not so quiet about it either).

Thank you for that simple but valuable wisdom!

I don't do it as much in live poker but online I like to make little annoying 3 bets so that instead of completing the action, the subsequent calls are still at risk of being raised by other players, making it more risky for them to play the hand. It gets a lot of folds from players that probably should have never called in the first place, leaving dead money for the remaining players.

That's smart and I need to start incorporating it.