Hi,

I'm new to this community and I have a question regarding the incomplete raise rule as per TDA


Blinds - 1000/2000

UTG (40K) limps in for 2000
MP( 45K) raises to 5500
Cutoff(7.9K) shoves all in for 7900
everyone else folded

My question is whether the UTG who initially limped in as the option to Reraise? or he can only call the all in or fold?

also whether the MP player has the option to reraise when the UTG decided to call the all-in bet?

Thanks in advance.

UTG should be able to reraise since there was a full raise after their limp. If the rule is that a less than minimum reraise doesn't open the action, then MP would not be able to reraise unless UTG put in a limp-raise.

UTG can raise as Nath pointed out because MP raised.

MP's original raise was 3500 more than the limp. For MP to be able to re-raise the cutoff's all in bet would have to be 9000 or more (which is at least 3500 more than MP's 5500 bet).

In LHE the rule is that if an all in is greater than or equal to half of a raise then it is reopened for a raise.

Thank guys. I was really confused by the following TDA rule and hence this question

47: Re-Opening the Bet.
A: In no-limit and pot limit, an all-in wager (or cumulative multiple short all-ins) totaling less than a full bet or raise will not reopen betting for players who have already acted and are not facing at least a full bet or raise when the action returns to them. If multiple short all-ins re-open the betting, the minimum raise is always the last full valid bet or raise of the round.

Any thoughts?

The TDA rule listed just above sums it well.

It means that if UTG elects to raise, the minimum he can raise to would be 11400 (7900 + 3500).

Reading rule 47, the key phrase is “…and are not facing at least a full bet or raise when action returns to them.” ITG in your example is facing MP’s full raise. It should be obvious that UTG can raise - just pretend cutoff did not go all in; would UTG be able to raise in that case? Obviously he could so the short all in is irrelevant.

The same rule also explains why MP cannot raise (assuming UTG calls or folds). MP is not facing a full bet or raise. Min raise amount for cutoff would be 9000. MP is only facing a bet of 7900, so by rule 47 action is not reopened to MP. MP can only call or fold, not raise. Again, since it’s not a full raise by cutoff, we can reach the right answer by pretending cutoff folded. Would MP be able to raise if cutoff hand folded? Of course not.