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Old 11-21-2006, 04:11 AM   #126
argybargy2002
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:

You have just picked up a nutshot. Your hand will also be very well disguised if you hit it and potentially be very valuable.

There are 2 players who you suspect may be slowplaying and who have already checked the turn, one was the preflop raiser making his checks even more conspicuous. The only player between you and a free river is a conservative player who seems to be out of his comfot zone and will not be taking stabs into 5-way pots with A-high boards.

Checking seems to be the OBVIOUS play here because there is no reason to allow yourself to be raised out of the hand by one of the checkers when a river could get you their stacks. Your implied odds here seem to outweigh any potential bluff EV by orders of magnitude.

Bluffing into this many players after the A hits seems unlikely to succeed and it may wind up with you having to fold before the river which could be disaterous, particularly if someone actually is slowplaying a big hand. IMO you should be more than happy to see a river for free with your 4 outs.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Why bet and risk being raised and so losing a chance at hitting a miracle card to take a big pot. If indeed you are getting slowplayed then you should take advantage of it, not play into their hands.

Now lets hear about the river please
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:23 PM   #127
Cornell Fiji
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

I would like to go back to your preflop call.

I really don't like it oop with so many people to act behind you. I just think that you will have better chances to put your money in.

You are making this call solely on your reads; your reads won't go away in the near future but your cards and position will improve. I would just fold this the first time around.

Steve
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Old 12-19-2006, 10:44 PM   #128
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

As I've only recently starting reading this forum regularly, I got through all 13 pages today...

Please, oh please tell me that you river the nuts.
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Old 12-31-2006, 07:30 PM   #129
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:


SB checks, continuing to show weakness. The BB thinks it over for a while. As he is thinking he takes a sip of his tea, and I know this is going go sound weird, but he suddenly throws up all over the floor. Luckily he missed the table and cards. I had not seen him throw up ever before, but I did see him burp heavily and kinda throw up in his mouth a little bit once, and on that hand he was slowplaying a monster. So its a bit tough to say exactly what info to take from the throw up. Anyway, he checks.

Even if the SB has nothing he is likely to raise you if you bet. His reasoning of course will derive from the age old saying that "if a guy throws up and then check-raises the turn he must be strong"

Knowing this you must check through the turn and try to hit your miracle card
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Old 02-05-2007, 09:25 PM   #130
Assani Fisher
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

David Sklansky has been kind enough to chime in:

Quote:
The reason I'm answering this relates to the fact that he already posted this question AND NOT ONE PERSON ANSWERED THAT THE HAND SHOULD RANDOMLY BE PLAYED A CERTAIN PERCENTAGE OF THE TIME. Is this what happens when posters don't expect me to visit a forum occasionally to discipline them? Yes many of the answers gave good reasons for and against this call. Noting what parameters needed to be filled to make the call right or wrong. But no one seemed to grasp the fact that in a no limit game against decent opponents there are many marginal hands that should be played SOMETIMES even if the parameters aren't exactly right. That's to prevent opponents from being sure you don't have a certain hand, or alternatively to give yourself a chance to bust them when they are sure you can't have that hand. 54 suited certinly fits the criteria for an at least sometimes hand under all but the most adverse circumstances (such as knowledge that the button often reraises). In other words the answer should have been something like "I'll definitely play the hand if such and such, otherwise I'll play it maybe one in four times". But nobody answered that way. Not acceptable.

link
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Old 02-05-2007, 09:43 PM   #131
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

5* thread.
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Old 03-30-2007, 09:25 PM   #132
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:
I would like to go back to your preflop call.


I was ready to move on, but I don't mind discussing it a bit more at all though.....


Quote:
I really don't like it oop with so many people to act behind you. I just think that you will have better chances to put your money in.

You are making this call solely on your reads; your reads won't go away in the near future but your cards and position will improve. I would just fold this the first time around.

Steve
Well I think it depends upon your overall tourney strategy: Are you trying to take a few risks, accumulate chips, and bully the table or are you content to sit back and wait for good spots?

I think that I'm some what in between. And in this scenario I found a spot that would only cost me 2 BBs and I could be pretty sure where I stood after the flop. And my hand is so well disguised that this could be one of those hands that "win me the tournament." I do understand your viewpoint though.
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Old 03-30-2007, 09:30 PM   #133
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

YES!
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:22 PM   #134
TCA
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

This really has to be the best 2+2 thread I have ever read.
My sides actually hurt after reading it, of course it probably helps that I didn't have to wait over a year and in the last 11 months at least we have managed to expose one extra card, its a shame we havent yet clarified the action on that card.

Also I love the way Assani questions people suggesting the all in play on every street, isn't that always the correct play? You could push pre-flop against a guy who is probably slowplaying a monster and risk 17k to win 700... standard?

Seriously though, I think pre-flop is fine, this will be very +EV in the LR if a raise is pretty unlikely behind and this guy probably has a monster, is likely to let us catch and then stack him. Also I think playing soooooted 45 here will randomise our play enough and give us some additional value in playing the hand.

Flop check, Turn check. I would rather play this way and give myself an opportunity to stack EP on the river is we hit and he has a monster than risk being r/r, or putting ourself in a position where we have to bluff to win the pot on the river if we get called and miss. Obviously betting has the bonus of building the pot, which will make stacking our opponent easier without overbetting somewhere. Also I think it is very likely someone has an Ace here and we wont be getting rid of everyone and taking the pot. I could probably go on about this for a bit, although Im afraid it would be a waste of my time because we may never know the river and I might not get to discuss this hand further.

So to summarise, push all in on turn.
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Old 04-29-2007, 12:36 PM   #135
Keys Myaths
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Check turn, hit the nuts on the river, stack two people.

Standard.
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Old 04-29-2007, 01:18 PM   #136
JoeyJoJo Shabadu
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Flop call is painfully std. Check the flop.

I check the turn... if UTG was dealt pocket aces and a jack you're drawing dead.

Awesome thread btw. Waiting for next April 1st to say you checked, the river was a q of clubs, everyone checked it down and you won with high card 5 would be sweeeeeeet!!!
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:30 PM   #137
nath
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

So what happened on the turn?
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Old 05-03-2007, 02:38 PM   #138
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:
So what happened on the turn?
loooooool
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Old 05-03-2007, 03:00 PM   #139
nath
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:
The BB thinks it over for a while. As he is thinking he takes a sip of his tea, and I know this is going go sound weird, but he suddenly throws up all over the floor. Luckily he missed the table and cards. I had not seen him throw up ever before, but I did see him burp heavily and kinda throw up in his mouth a little bit once, and on that hand he was slowplaying a monster. So its a bit tough to say exactly what info to take from the throw up. Anyway, he checks.
Maybe he was feeling ill because he was up early that morning running oats.
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Old 05-21-2007, 06:58 PM   #140
Assani Fisher
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:
So what happened on the turn?
Sorry, got caught up with something....

Ok, so I decide to check the turn. I don't want to be check raised and I have a draw, so I'll gladly see a free card if I can. And I do! The LP guy sits there and thinks for honestly a good minute, which was pretty strange to me. But he then checked.

River is another ace. The board is now: 2-7-J-A-A with no possible flushes.

The SB checks. BB presumably was still feeling sick from the tea. He mucked his hand and ran towards the nearest bathroom. UTG then checks yet again! No real reads on either of them at this point other than what I mentioned on the flop post.

So now its up to me. The guy who I thought was the most feared player has just mucked. Two opponents have checked the river including the UTG preflop raiser who I'm completely stumped about right now. LP quickly checked the flop, which made me think he had nothing but then he took forever to check on the turn. Theres 2000 in the pot. I have absolutely nothing.

Do you bluff here? If so, how often? And how much?

In case you don't feel like going back, here was my analysis of LP:

"Guy in LP is probably one of the weaker players at the table- not because he is reckless, but because he is very predictable. I talked to him before the tourney and found out that he had won his way in through a sattlite and had never played at anywhere near these stakes. And it showed. He was pretty much playing straightforward ABC poker. Pretty much you could believe his bets for what they represented, and you could push him off a marginal hand easily."


Thoughts?
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:20 AM   #141
seke2
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

I get a straw and a spoon and start eating the tea-dude's barf off the floor. If that doesn't get everyone to run away from the table and muck their hands, they must have a good hand, and I can check/fold. Otherwise, they all have crappy hands and I'll win the pot uncontested.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:23 AM   #142
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

every time i see this thread bumped i cringe. pretty sure timex wasnt even born when it was started.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:41 AM   #143
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

HAAHAHA I just read this for the first time and I assumed it`d be done by page 15. Guess not! btw Check. Why bet when you`re sure you`l lget pushed out by a re-raise. If the UTG checks the river and you missed bet anyways because he`d definitely bet the river for value if he wasn`t an idiot.
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Old 05-22-2007, 10:54 AM   #144
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:
I'll be posting this hand in steps.
Indeed.



My own contributions make me confused, as I wasn't getting high then.

Jeez. The vomit must be fossilized by now. You're gonna need an icepick there, seke.
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Old 05-23-2007, 01:43 AM   #145
Assani Fisher
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:
HAAHAHA I just read this for the first time and I assumed it`d be done by page 15. Guess not! btw Check. Why bet when you`re sure you`l lget pushed out by a re-raise. If the UTG checks the river and you missed bet anyways because he`d definitely bet the river for value if he wasn`t an idiot.
You do realize that the river has been posted, right?
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Old 05-23-2007, 10:00 AM   #146
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Quote:
every time i see this thread bumped i cringe. pretty sure timex wasnt even born when it was started.
timex?
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Old 05-23-2007, 11:37 AM   #147
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Poisoning the most dangerous players tea was a killer idea, one I intend to implement into my general gameplan in live small-medium stakes MTT´s.

I agree with the preflop call and your postflop play this far, however I give it up on the river.

Because I have never played a high stakes MTT, my opinion is kinda irrelevant, just wanted to contribute to this truly awesome thread.
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Old 05-23-2007, 03:42 PM   #148
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

Wow, I want to thank nath for bumping this thread. I haven't seen this thread before, but now that I have, I feel my game has improved about 3x. I really appreciate it, all. Btw, I hadn't even heard about poker when this thread started.

Oh, I give up the river probably.
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Old 05-24-2007, 02:24 AM   #149
Assani Fisher
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

LOL....I definitely didn't poison any tea.
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Old 05-24-2007, 03:51 AM   #150
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Re: Play though a hand with me here....

I suppose Ill take a serious crack at this thread although I feel like its a long extended joke and assani will jump out of my closet and say I been punked.

Pre I dont mind the call especially live where you likely have a much better feel for your opponents tendencies and can exploit them more easily than multitabling online.

flop Check seems like the best play by far. With the LP playre being the only left to act and the fact that you have labeled him weak tight, it seems that two good things can happen. 1.he checks behind and you get a chance to pick up a big draw on the turn. 2. He bets, everyone folds and you are presented a very good oppurtunity to bluff. Given your description of him, he would have reraised pre with QQ+ and maybe TT,JJ. He also is very likely to fold to your check raise on the turn with one pair such as AJ because he is a player that sees monsters and will decide you have an overpair or a set, he cant put you on a draw as there are no real draws on the board. He wont have two pair here given that those combinations are not hands that he would call pre with. This leaves your play working everytime unless he has 22, 77, or JJ, which overall is pretty unlikely. All this equals a profitable bluff oppurtunity.

Turn Seems like a terrible spot to bet. Just check and pray LP checks behind so you get a chance to hit that gutterball.

River game over, the pot isnt yours to win. Given the action a bet here will get called pretty light. For example UTG easily could have KK here. Betting here is spewwwww.
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