I am sorry for missing this discussion. This is a good post and I call this with 45 suited all day long after a slow-player min-raises. He is offering the whole table pot odds, so you have to take this opportunity. Also, since he slowplays, he might just give you a very cheap post flop draw if you are close. Easy flat for me.

great logic about going for his stack with depth. it is slightly loose, but obviously the most important factor should be how likely you feel a reraise is. 2 important subfactors in this: the general table environment - what is the typical speed? are there any short stacks who might start licking their lips at the 2 2XBB bets + the blinds? what about big stacks willing to reraise in position? also, the quality of the reads you anticipate players behind could have on you or utg and their willingness to make a play like squeeze based on them should hold some weight. also, the typical postflop environment should help you decide whether or not your 45 can be accommodated cheaply enough. if you doubt it, obviously you wouldn't have called.

to oversimplify, if the table is playing like a ghost town... easy call. if there are a few players behind who you feel might be up to shenanigans if they find an opportunity, the call might not be worth it.

This is a reason why a RR to 4xBB can also be a great play. Villain will check flops that hit him. It's a great way to attack slow-playing. You often get 4 cards before the flop betting begins.

Do not discount this as I've seen great players make this move at this level. My friend did this in a live tourney with 34s and busted villains trip aces. Hit a deuce on the turn for free.

Alright, you want debate? How about this: I think Sklansky is dead wrong.

If we were talking about a cash game where there were a lot of regulars that knew your playing style and had seen you play many hands before, or even if you were at a tournament table against playes who had seen you play many times before in previous tournaments, then Sklansky would have a point. However, in this case there is virtually no value to randomizing your play because nobody has enough of a read on you for it to matter. The tournament is about 60 hands old. There are already some new players at your table replacing those who have busted out. Assuming 9-handed, play, you've been in positions 2-4 20 times total, so you have probably acted after an EP raise zero to two times before this. NO SAMPLE SIZE. NO WAY FOR YOUR OPPONENTS TO HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOUR CALLING RANGE IS.

Let's make one thing clear. Sklansky is basically implying that these hands (suited connectors, suited aces, low pairs) are not good enough on their own merit to play. If they were, we should play them 100% of the time. The reason he suggests to play them is because when our opponents know that we play these hands, they can't narrow our hand range down and make big bluffs or laydowns as easily when we actually have premium hands like big pairs or AK. So basically we play slightly -EV hands sometimes to increase our EV when we play premium hands.

Having said that, this DOES NOT APPLY in most tournament situations because you aren't going to play nearly enough hands against your opponents for them to get a really precise read on you. Thus you have no need to randomize your play.

One last thing: This does not mean you can't play this hand! You are definitely getting a lot of deception value as long as you have not been really loose preflop. You have to decide whether your reads of other players at the table and your prospects of outplaying them justify entering the pot with the worst hand. Also, making a distinction between 45s and 67s as someone else did imo is pretty nonsensical. Either play both, or neither. The EV difference between the two, if any, is insignificant.

Cliff notes:
Sklansky is wrong
Don't randomize your play unless your opps know you well
45s ~= 67s

wow - Assani - I just followed a link by Steroid Boy from our NBA Modern Era Thread...this is unheard of man...you really love strecthing threads out....no wonder you didnt want to put a time limit on the picks in the draft.

Anyway - I really hope you win this pot man...theres so much suspense...

I got an idea - why dont you reveal the end result at the final table of the WSOP ME this year on ESPN?...just slip Norman Chad a twenty.

nice to see you here too HSP

Assani please don't keep the thread in suspense for another two years...

i go with the raise 2.8x

assani: i think i would stand up, point at the pot in the middle of the table, and scream "DAT ICY POT BE MINE SON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" while at the same time preforming a sloppy shove of all your chips into the middle....such a show of strength will surely get him to fold almost all of his holdings

LMFAO, I almost spit my food out when I read this. Well played sir, well played.

lol assaniaments

Clearly the play here is to put all of your chips in the middle and while they're out there, ask the dealer if the parimeter line is in play. If she says it is, you just say "oh well that's exciting, i was going allin anyways" and if it's not, then you say "oh well that's exciting, i was going allin anyways"

Assani,

It feels like we've come too far to muck our hand here. I would probably come over the top.

This might be the most excruciating thing I ever read- it took all that time to go through a completely uninteresting hand that had no message? I want to kill the idiot who bumped this back up, lol

Bump......

Conclusion:


So the action gets back to me, and I'm wondering how a check/raise would look here after I had checked every street. Does it not look like a total bluff? Most likely I think it does, but I take my time to consider it. But after a few minutes someone else at the table calls clock on me. I was completely stumped, and the clock eventually ran out thus making my hand be folded. Some people later claimed that they thought I fell asleep. I'm not sure if I did or not, but if I had to say I'd say that I was awake the whole time. I was eliminated on the very next hand in a very interesting spot("Play through a Hand With me Here Part II" maybe?)

And so ends a chapter in MTT history. I've been following this thread since I was a mere lurker, and never felt worthy enough to post, but as I wipe a tear from my eye, I know I will keep the spirit of the thread in my heart as I consider how icy my pots are and reminisce about bygone eras that I never really was a part of.

(P.S. Can anyone besides Assani keep a straight face while saying "icy pots?" Because I can't, and I barely even get it.)

Truly... this is the best ending that there could ever be!

I still don't understand why this is in the low stakes forum btw.

because this thread is so old you made it before the forum split

[x] thread is a running joke
[x] some nuggets of useful strategy in it anyway
[x] thread has record for longest play a hand street by street that will never be broken
[ ] hand actually happened

FYP.

Great thread Assani, but how do you think it would have played if you were dealt 5c6c instead?

Interesting question, I'll let others share some thoughts as I think it over and then get back to you on that.

Quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read. But honestly, if throwing up in the back of his mouth was caused by a large burp, and throwing up on the turn was a spontaneous act (you didn't mention a large burp on the turn), I don't think you draw any reads from it.

Almost the funniest thing I have ever read.

Ditto. I can't help but think of all the poor souls that passed on while waiting for this river card.

As for the hand: I'm fine with spec'ing on the sc's for all the reasons mentioned (including Sklansky's - and I'm almost hoping for an excuse to eventually show this hand down, just to mix up my table image), as long as you don't fall in love with something mediocre like top pair/two pair. Good fold on the river.

I'm breathless with antici ... pation. Let me guess - you 3-bet pf with AKo, but QQ held up? No, wait! Maybe JJ>TT? Whatever it was, it must have been fascinating after spending two years checking down 45s.

Dear God please don't.