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Old 02-26-2009, 02:46 PM   #1576
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
That doesn't apply to people who blocked their User IDs more recently.

When SharkScope decide they want to comply, they have my email address, so I'd assume that they'll send an email. Both PS and SS know each other's views, we emailed back a half dozen times, and we came to the current position.

All the other major results tracking sites were amenable to PS's view, so I can only suggest you use one of them: www.pokerprolabs.com probably has the most similar STT data to SharkScope.
Yeh, I've used that site, a bit slow, but it still gives a lot of info for Stars players, and you can see Suzzers graph (WOOOO) , which is actually looking pretty good now , nice upswing recently.
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:12 PM   #1577
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Long article, but interesting backstory to anyone who liked the Godfather movie:

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/fe...odfather200903
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:18 PM   #1578
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Josem

Nobody can be too surprised by Sharkscope's unwillingness to comply w/ Pokerstars' request. And comparing SS to other SNG data-tracking websites is like comparing the Sahara to a sandbox. They have a growing, thriving business that would obviously be hurt bigtime by any changes that would limit the availability of data by default.

If Stars had any legal recourse to force SS to comply I'm sure it would've been taken by now. Since they don't, and since SS has every right to protect its own business interests, I will continue to maintain that the onus is 100% on Stars to prevent the collection of data from their servers not only by SS, but by other private dataminers who continue to make a mockery of Stars' current policy on datamining.

Do you know how easy it is for somebody w/ a poker tracking application to do a mass sharkscoping session after a set, with the Stars client closed, and then use native note functions in any of the available HUDs to color code based on profitability? This is a very effective circumvention of the policy that I'm sure many pros employ, giving them that much more advantage over those who may not have the time or resources to do this.

Stars' current policy on SS doesn't level the playing field, it gives a significant advantage to those willing to put in time after the fact, or those running a laptop alongside their PCs. Until Stars gets it right I will feel good about protecting my right to a level playing field.

Last edited by _Towelie_; 02-26-2009 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:26 PM   #1579
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gramps View Post
Long article, but interesting backstory to anyone who liked the Godfather movie:

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/fe...odfather200903
Quote:
“Let’s go to bed,” Evans says, leading me through his Hollywood Regency home to his bedroom, where so many starlets have slept that, in the producer’s heyday, his housekeeper would place the name of the previous evening’s conquest beside his coffee cup on the breakfast table so that he could address her properly.
Robert Evans is one serious baller.

The Kid Stays in the Picture is pretty entertaining too.
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:31 PM   #1580
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

anyone good at statistics ? i have a 10 Q assignment due 2moz and if someone could help i could maybe review a bunch of hh`s? sweat u for an hour or so ? if said person is competent at stats im pretty confident it would take <1hr

Last edited by PokahPokah; 02-26-2009 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:52 PM   #1581
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Towelie_ View Post
Josem

Nobody can be too surprised by Sharkscope's unwillingness to comply w/ Pokerstars' request. And comparing SS to other SNG data-tracking websites is like comparing the Sahara to a sandbox. They have a growing, thriving business that would obviously be hurt bigtime by any changes that would limit the availability of data by default.
That site Josem listed has all the same info. You just have to do the math in your head of total winnings / (avg. BI * games). Anyone could easily write a script to do this for you. But that little extra step will probably go a long way to keeping the idiots from berating the fish ingame. Which is a good good thing. I think we should promote and support this thing.

The whole point of this is not to keep the pros from using SS to their advantage, it's to keep the idiots who think they know something from berating the casual players who are just playing to have fun. You don't think HUDs in general give the pros an unfair edge?
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:52 PM   #1582
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokahPokah View Post
anyone good at statistics ? i have a 10 Q assignment due 2moz and if someone could help i could maybe review a bunch of hh`s? sweat u for an hour or so ? if said person is competent at stats im pretty confident it would take <1hr
all sorted now
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Old 02-26-2009, 03:54 PM   #1583
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokahPokah View Post
anyone good at statistics ? i have a 10 Q assignment due 2moz and if someone could help i could maybe review a bunch of hh`s? sweat u for an hour or so ? if said person is competent at stats im pretty confident it would take <1hr
I never understand why people post here for help on their homework. I understand it's probably saving you time but what are you going to do when you have a test? If you take the extra time to learn it now then it's going to payoff in the long run. Maybe I'm just a self learner and usually learn way faster doing things by myself rather than listening to someone else.

That said, I ****ing hated statistics.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:15 PM   #1584
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
That site Josem listed has all the same info. You just have to do the math in your head of total winnings / (avg. BI * games). Anyone could easily write a script to do this for you. But that little extra step will probably go a long way to keeping the idiots from berating the fish ingame. Which is a good good thing. I think we should promote and support this thing.

The whole point of this is not to keep the pros from using SS to their advantage, it's to keep the idiots who think they know something from berating the casual players who are just playing to have fun. You don't think HUDs in general give the pros an unfair edge?
I obv definitely don't want idiots using SS to bash the fishies, and I was unaware that there were other sites comparable to SS - the one's I've visited in the past weren't even close in terms of sheer volume of data. If the matter really is about abusing fish at the tables with SS data I think there are more effective ways for Stars to deal with this.

As for fair and unfair edges, there are two ways of looking at it. I can understand the arguments that suggest HUDs provide an unfair advantage, but they're already out there being used legally, so the genie's out of the bottle and nothing can be done about that now. The way I view it, since there are so many people currently using HUDs and sharkscope, I need to use these things as well to level the playing field against those who are already using them.

If stars came up with an effective way to eliminate the SS advantage for everybody, I would gladly comply. Until then, their interim solution is wholly ineffective. That's the big point I'm trying to drive home.

Last edited by _Towelie_; 02-26-2009 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 04:25 PM   #1585
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditch Digger View Post

That said, I ****ing hated statistics.
this is the reason why , theres no exam for this module either just like 5 of these things to do. i hate stats more than limit holdem :X
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:59 PM   #1586
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by LawJik View Post
+2
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Old 02-26-2009, 06:53 PM   #1587
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

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Originally Posted by SiQ View Post
Anyone seen Eagle Eye? Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jurrasstoil View Post
y. i saw it and at the end i was like "alright, so what do i do now?". It filled 1 and a half hour with mediocrity and left absolutely no impact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiQ View Post
Eagle Eye was insanely bad IMO.

The action sequences were... action sequences. I mean yeah they grab your attention but even the action seqs were really stupid.

The whole movie was awful, corney, and unrealistic. Now I don't mean unrealistic as in something that couldn't happen in real life - because obv just about every movie has something like that... but I mean the things that happened in this movie just make you go "wtf, that is so ******ed, that makes no sense".
This movie seems like they just quickly picked out a concept, and wrote the entire thing in a weekend and started filming.
A) Welcome to modern movies

I just watched it last night/this morning and it was all I wanted from it. Really cool action sequences and a weird ending that made no sense. So it accomplished that much, imo.

The problem with most movies like this is that someone comes up with a great idea and theyre like THATLL BE THE TWIST! When in actuality...

Spoiler:
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:11 PM   #1588
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Towelie_ View Post
I will continue to maintain that the onus is 100% on Stars to prevent the collection of data from their servers not only by SS, but by other private dataminers who continue to make a mockery of Stars' current policy on datamining.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1mo View Post
Ugh, I'm trying to buy HEM like you guys suggested...but I don't use neteller or paypal, and I can only transfer from Stars.

Waiting to hear back from support...can't believe they can't get a player account on Stars to transfer money to, and don't take credit/debit card info.
The issue isn't HEM's desire - the issue is that PokerStars abides by the Isle of Man's Anti-Money Laundering laws requiring that PokerStars transfers be only for the purposes of playing poker. Paying for other products and services isn't kosher.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:25 PM   #1589
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

The Isle of Man has laws? Who knew? Also why doesn't PS just buy the Isle of Man and start their own country? That would be cool.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:29 PM   #1590
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Noodleman - looks like those kids are learning the **** outta those audio books.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:31 PM   #1591
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
That site Josem listed has all the same info. You just have to do the math in your head of total winnings / (avg. BI * games). Anyone could easily write a script to do this for you. But that little extra step will probably go a long way to keeping the idiots from berating the fish ingame. Which is a good good thing. I think we should promote and support this thing.

The whole point of this is not to keep the pros from using SS to their advantage, it's to keep the idiots who think they know something from berating the casual players who are just playing to have fun. You don't think HUDs in general give the pros an unfair edge?
Just to reiterate a post we made previously. We'd love to comply with PokerStars requests - as being an allowed service on PokerStars would greatly benefit our business. However when we asked for clarification from Josem as to which stats could be shown by default, we were told nothing can be shown, from which whether a player is a winner or a loser can be inferred. That means effectively that no data other than number of games played can be shown as as you rightly point out it can be inferred from virtually any other statistic.

Even an arbitrary rating number from 0 to 100 cannot be used, because a 0 would always be a loser and 100 would always be a winner. We proposed a number of compromises that would have made it harder to work out if a player had won or lost money and hence solve the vast majority of the abusive issues but all were rejected.

No tracking sites out there, even the ones that claim to comply, comply with these rules that Josem stated to us, and we would have no useful service if we just showed the number of games played by default.

Hence we cannot comply with the rules.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:41 PM   #1592
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
The Isle of Man has laws? Who knew? Also why doesn't PS just buy the Isle of Man and start their own country? That would be cool.
Given the economy over here, we are probably open to offers.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:48 PM   #1593
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkScope View Post
Just to reiterate a post we made previously. We'd love to comply with PokerStars requests - as being an allowed service on PokerStars would greatly benefit our business. However when we asked for clarification from Josem as to which stats could be shown by default, we were told nothing can be shown, from which whether a player is a winner or a loser can be inferred. That means effectively that no data other than number of games played can be shown as as you rightly point out it can be inferred from virtually any other statistic.

Even an arbitrary rating number from 0 to 100 cannot be used, because a 0 would always be a loser and 100 would always be a winner. We proposed a number of compromises that would have made it harder to work out if a player had won or lost money and hence solve the vast majority of the abusive issues but all were rejected.

No tracking sites out there, even the ones that claim to comply, comply with these rules that Josem stated to us, and we would have no useful service if we just showed the number of games played by default.

Hence we cannot comply with the rules.
Maybe we should move this to it's own thread. I was under the impression you could show total winnings, total # of games and avg. BI. Josem can you clarify is this true or not?

The site Josem linked shows avg. profit but he says they're going to change that.


Edit: Josem just sent me the rules. There's nothing that says you can't show how profitable a player is in the roundabout way I described. Also he's confirmed that via AIM that he doesn't think PS has a problem with total winnings, avg. BI and # of games shown by default. I think you're being a little disingenuous by saying all you can show is total # of games.

1. No player profitability data (i.e. ROI, net profit, etc) may be
displayed on any player unless the player has explicitly opted into
such display by transferring $0.03 to a prominently published
PokerStars account owned by the Service Operator. This request must be
acknowledged by the Service Operator by sending the $0.03 back to the
player as confirmation within a reasonable time frame not to exceed 5
days.

Last edited by suzzer99; 02-26-2009 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:50 PM   #1594
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longy View Post
Given the economy over here, we are probably open to offers.
We might be open to offers for Guam for $1 trillion or so. Also we might start selling off a few of the Aleutians to Russia.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:50 PM   #1595
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

i just **** my pants

boku opened his prop-bet thread determined to just have postersin it to bet

1st post a guy who wants to bet ON boku

im very sure this wont happen anymore,congrats to all those lolHSgrinders to come in there and say how easy this is.action killed
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Old 02-26-2009, 08:44 PM   #1596
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

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Originally Posted by xxdanimalxx View Post
Noodleman - looks like those kids are learning the **** outta those audio books.
Yeah, cute pics.
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Old 02-26-2009, 08:50 PM   #1597
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkScope View Post
Just ........
Mr Sharkscope: Have you guys ever thought about removing the fishbowl symbols from the donkey fish? I hate to even think about how many of them have looked there self up, saw the symbol, and gave up on poker.

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Old 02-26-2009, 09:29 PM   #1598
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

clownklauen,
Yeah, it appears everyone is ******ed. This tilts me to no end.
"o hey, a prop bet that I will never bet against, and the guy obviously wants to take a lot of action -- this is none of my business -- let me go and tell everyone that it's easy to do and/or try to book my own action in his thread"
I'm sorry, if you were one of the people that did any of the knocking you're really a moron and for your own sake you should not do anything gambling related outside of online because you probably will run into a lot of problems with people.
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:37 PM   #1599
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Maybe we should move this to it's own thread. I was under the impression you could show total winnings, total # of games and avg. BI. Josem can you clarify is this true or not?

The site Josem linked shows avg. profit but he says they're going to change that.


Edit: Josem just sent me the rules. There's nothing that says you can't show how profitable a player is in the roundabout way I described. Also he's confirmed that via AIM that he doesn't think PS has a problem with total winnings, avg. BI and # of games shown by default. I think you're being a little disingenuous by saying all you can show is total # of games.

1. No player profitability data (i.e. ROI, net profit, etc) may be
displayed on any player unless the player has explicitly opted into
such display by transferring $0.03 to a prominently published
PokerStars account owned by the Service Operator. This request must be
acknowledged by the Service Operator by sending the $0.03 back to the
player as confirmation within a reasonable time frame not to exceed 5
days.
We have very little interest in it becoming a he said/she said situation from private communication - but we have no reason to lie, we are already prohibited on PokerStars. The rule may say no "player profitability data" but the "etc." can be used to include pretty much anything we suggest. For example ITM% should not be included in the category as it does not conclusively say anything about how much a player has won, because you have no idea what stakes they finished in the money and what positions they finished in. It is far less useful than total cashes and average buyin which can be directly used to calculate total profit. It is also an extremely poor stat to try and berate someone with, as most new players will have no idea what it means anyway.

We strongly believe that all abusive use of statistics revolves around the total profit figure and no other figure and if you make that impossible to accurately know by default then 99% of PokerStars concerns would be resolved.

Our compromise offers have always been to make it impossible to work out conclusively whether a player has won or lost money, but still display some ability metric that shows whether they are a good player or not. This is logically far better than showing total cashes and average buyin, which are apparently now OK to display.

We were told by PokerStars that this meant our views were irreconcilable and therefore no further progress was possible - and they ended communication.

We'd be more than happy to discuss the issue publicly on Two Plus Two with us, the community, and PokerStars to see if there are options that everyone feels finds the correct compromise. We do not believe there is any value in discussing it privately any further because there seems to be "confusion" about what was said previously.
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:47 PM   #1600
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Re: *** Official STTf February kakkendaaliluukku Thread - No lame BBV ***

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Originally Posted by mjcace View Post
Mr Sharkscope: Have you guys ever thought about removing the fishbowl symbols from the donkey fish? I hate to even think about how many of them have looked there self up, saw the symbol, and gave up on poker.

The fishbowls are a key trademark of the site, but we did make it clear to PokerStars we would be willing to turn them off by default and allow users to have complete blocks of their data if it meant we would be taken off the prohibited list.

Regardless of PokerStars stance towards us, we are also working on some functionality to allow players to periodically (possibly monthly) reset their stats as we feel this will be extremely "fish friendly". Players who have lost money previously will be able to reset their statistics so that they can ignore the losses from their "unlucky streak" and start again at trying to build up a good rating. We think a lot a player will choose to use this rather than blocking their statistics and other users will know via an icon that the player has reset their statistics on a certain date, but have no information as to the player's previous performance.
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